Urban Development and Proposals Discussion

[darwink]

Can't they use the three curling arenas at Winsport up by COP?

The hosting plan has Short Track Training allocated to the Markin MacPhail Centre at Winsport. For curling it would be smaller at 3922 people than Vancouver's at 6,000, which was commented as too small at the time. Easy enough to put all curling in Red Deer for higher capacity, but I imagine the Winsport Arena would be seen as a backup backup if the IOC was really against using Red Deer.

 

[Cowtown]

Curling is surprisingly more popular than people realise. Centrium in Red Deer makes sense. The distance of Red Deer also means athletes could stay at the village with all the other athletes.

 

[Spring2008]

The athletes village is where the victoria park bus barns is right now.

Oh wow, so it is planned for East Vic Park then. CMLC is working on public realm for entire area as well as further west in Victoria Park, def fast track things assuming at least 3,000 out of 4,600 units are built in Calgary. Would love to see Beltline's population figures in ~10 years.

 

[darwink]

^ Yes, but don't equate athletes occupancy with final units. For the Olympics they 'demise' the units and break them into smaller units, by making every non-bedroom a bedroom, and do multiple occupancy. I think it is 1000-1200 units in the Rivers District.

 

[gsunnyg]

I think they definitely lost my vote after saying they'd potentially host curling in Edmonton and especially some ski events in Whistler. Like are these cities going to contribute to the cost directly? On top of that you wanna reward BC after that pipeline debacle. Plus the cost is put at over $5 billion but with no new large sized arena or roofed stadium for the Stampeders or a potential MLS team one day. I mean who on the planning committee thinks of this crap. I was look forward to the olympics happening but for a 2 week event, this plan looks underwhelming. Right now the only thing good coming out of this plan is the affordable housing and 2mins of fame. At this point I'd rather be content with using some municipal tax dollars for a hockey arena, that way we'll at least generate some revenue indirectly from getting back all the events that go to Edmonton.

 

[Spring2008]

Pro Olympics side of it, makes a lot of sense to me. Revamp of most large scale sporting facilities in city plus stadium with 10k more seats, new fieldhouse, 80% of athletes village will be affordable housing units after the games. I think the City has a very high probability of winning if they bid too. Part of the plan includes a new mid-sized arena, and Saddledome reno's - I think the City's using this piece as leverage for new arena talks - indirectly stating we're good with or without new arena. You don't come out and say we need a new arena to host. As we get further along i'm sure the new midsized arena/saddledome reno's capital will be used instead to help fund new large scale arena. I'm sure Saddledome can still be used for smaller/lower profile events during the games.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/loca...-great-olympic-sized-deal-pass-you-by-calgary

 

[maestro]

The city has a lock on winning the bid. No one wants to host anymore. That says it all. You can budget a lot more affordable housing by not hosting the games. We shouldn't fall for that line so easily. The other improvements to sports facilities is either an unnecessary luxury or sad that it takes a games for the province to address their deficiencies.

I'm indifferent to the games providing the city's contribution is kept to a minimum with the province and the universities contributing more. They can afford it. It will be a very expensive but, fun filled party without any of the legacy of 1988.

 

[darwink]

This is as close as I make the finances flow to outcomes. 2018ish dollars, breakdowns carried forward from last year's CBEC report and some eyeballing (if costs are higher in general from CBEC, increasing the individuals lines roughly proportionally), and from what is in this year's hosting plan. Anywhere where things don't line up, it is due to contingencies I think, or perhaps have missed some budget lines.

Code to make your own:

Spoiler

http://sankeymatic.com/build/

Public Funding [1762] Legacy Projects
Legacy Projects [502] Renewed venues
Renewed venues [75] McMahon
Renewed venues [12] Saddledome
Renewed venues [60] Olympic Oval
Renewed venues [25] Sliding Track
Renewed venues [55] Winsport Snow Sports
Renewed venues [10] Whistler Ski-Jumping
Renewed venues [20] Canmore Nordic Centre
Renewed venues [86] Nakiska
Renewed venues [5] Grandstand
Renewed venues [50] Training Areas
Renewed venues [104] Stampede Convention Areas
Legacy Projects [403] New venues
New venues [250] Field House?
New venues [153] Mid-sized Arena?
Legacy Projects [583] Housing
Housing [220] Athletes, City
Housing [163] Athletes, Mountain
Housing [200] Media and Stakeholders
Legacy Projects [90] General Capital Contingency
Legacy Projects [180] Legacy Fund
Public Funding [610] Security
Public Funding [300] Essential Services
Public Funding [120] Operational Contingency
Operational Contingency [120] Games Operations
Public Funding [218] Paralympics Operations
Paralympics Operations [218] Games Operations
Essential Services [300] Games Operations
Security [610] Games Operations
Private Funding [751] Olympics - IOC contribution
Private Funding [1404] Olympics - Domestic Sponsors, Ticketing, Merchandising
Private Funding [12] Paralympics - IOC contribution
Private Funding [66] Paralympics - Domestic Sponsors, Ticketing, Merchandising
Olympics - IOC contribution [751] Games Operations
Olympics - Domestic Sponsors, Ticketing, Merchandising [1404] Games Operations
Paralympics - IOC contribution [12] Games Operations
Games Operations [354] People and Impact, Olympics
Games Operations [49] People and Impact, Paralympics
Games Operations [985] Games Operations, Olympics
Games Operations [162] Games Operations, Paralympic
Games Operations [65] Finance, Olympics
Games Operations [9] Finance, Paralympic
Games Operations [544] Marketing and Communications, Olympics
Games Operations [53] Marketing and Communications, Paralympic
Games Operations [7] Legal, Olympics
Games Operations [1] Legal, Paralympic
Games Operations [200] Operational Contingency, Olympics
Games Operations [22] Operations Contingency, Paralympics
Games Operations [610] Security Operations
Paralympics - Domestic Sponsors, Ticketing, Merchandising [66] Games Operations
Games Operations [120] General Operational Contingency

 

[darwink]

The city has a lock on winning the bid. No one wants to host anymore. That says it all. You can budget a lot more affordable housing by not hosting the games. We shouldn't fall for that line so easily. The other improvements to sports facilities is either an unnecessary luxury or sad that it takes a games for the province to address their deficiencies.

I'm indifferent to the games providing the city's contribution is kept to a minimum with the province and the universities contributing more. They can afford it. It will be a very expensive but, fun filled party without any of the legacy of 1988.

The federal portion of funding only exists if there are Olympics. 50% dollars that go away. These are Direct Costs, costs "incurred in meeting International Federation standards, federal policy and/or legislation requirements related to the bidding or hosting project" and in-direct costs "incurred in meeting the identified commitments in the formal bid documents submitted by the Canadian bid society or in realizing the federally-approved legacy plan".

https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-h...olicy-hosting-international-sport-events.html

So depending where the province comes down on funding (a lot of the things would already be eligible for provincial funding, like affordable housing, the field house, sports renewals - all incrementally of course), we can see costs versus benefits. If the province covers 25%, the city contribution would be about the same, for $750 million, the city ends up with a capital and legacy spend of more than double.

 

[Calgcouver]

On an unrelated topic, does anyone know what kind of contractual obligation the developers of the Bow tower have to replace the York Hotel? I recall that they disassembled the hotel and intended to reuse the old facade, that the York hotel had heritage status, and that the adaptive reuse of the facade provided a density bonus to the Bow tower itself. Are they obligated to re-use that facade at a later date? Or is it likely that we'll just have to forget about the fact they ripped down a heritage building and don't intend to ever replace it.

On another note, I want to buy the St Regis Hotel and turn it into hostel or cheap boutique hotel. Still can't believe it is just sitting empty all this time, its such a cool building.

 

[Surrealplaces]

Renfrew/Bridgeland hill building up nicely.

 

[maestro]

The federal portion of funding only exists if there are Olympics. 50% dollars that go away. These are Direct Costs, costs "incurred in meeting International Federation standards, federal policy and/or legislation requirements related to the bidding or hosting project" and in-direct costs "incurred in meeting the identified commitments in the formal bid documents submitted by the Canadian bid society or in realizing the federally-approved legacy plan".

https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-h...olicy-hosting-international-sport-events.html

So depending where the province comes down on funding (a lot of the things would already be eligible for provincial funding, like affordable housing, the field house, sports renewals - all incrementally of course), we can see costs versus benefits. If the province covers 25%, the city contribution would be about the same, for $750 million, the city ends up with a capital and legacy spend of more than double.

Sounds great. It's just not realistic the federal government will cover 50% of the total costs of the games. They will give a lump sum commitment and walk away with the province or city responsible for any cost overruns. (and there will be under the current budget outline) The proposed facility upgrades and the affordable housing could still be built for less without hosting the games and without a federal commitment.

Looking at this as a federal cash grab is wrong. It will cost the city several hundred million dollars just for the opportunity to host and that's what people have to consider when choosing to host a games no one wants to host. The IOC was desperate for Beijing to step in as host. Stockholm won't last much longer in the current competition. Milan probably isn't too far behind. That leaves only Calgary and some city in Turkey. There's no economic formula that works.

 

[Social Justice]

Renfrew/Bridgeland hill building up nicely.

View attachment 156594

This is the type of density I love.

4-6 story buildings. Grid street layouts. Mature trees. About 4000-5000 ppl/km^2. Built on a human scale.

I find on this site a lot of people on this site wail about a new residential buildings not being +150m, but you can still greatly increase the population density with mid-rise buildings.

 

[Nimbus]

On an unrelated topic, does anyone know what kind of contractual obligation the developers of the Bow tower have to replace the York Hotel? I recall that they disassembled the hotel and intended to reuse the old facade, that the York hotel had heritage status, and that the adaptive reuse of the facade provided a density bonus to the Bow tower itself. Are they obligated to re-use that facade at a later date? Or is it likely that we'll just have to forget about the fact they ripped down a heritage building and don't intend to ever replace it.

I think even if we got a 250m+ Bow building not having the York facade and new building not done would still not be worth it. Apparently the city has little to no teeth to do anything about it. The bricks are in storage somewhere tagged and everything.

 

[Surrealplaces]

This is the type of density I love.

4-6 story buildings. Grid street layouts. Mature trees. About 4000-5000 ppl/km^2. Built on a human scale.

I find on this site a lot of people on this site wail about a new residential buildings not being +150m, but you can still greatly increase the population density with mid-rise buildings.

I love that kind of density too, and that would be my preference for most of the inner city. I would like to see that replicated further north along places like Edmonton Trail and Centre Street,...into neighborhoods like Capitol Hill or Killarney.

That said, I still do like the odd, tall res tower here and there.