The Hat Elbow River | 177.99m | 56s | Cidex Group | NORR

The difference between this site and the site in Eau Claire is that this site is on the north side of the river and Waterfront in Eau Clair is on the south side of the river - hugely different implications for the potential quality impact on the riverside experience.

Only in terms of the sun. No matter what side of the river it's on, it's still going to squeeze the riverfront into a tiny pathway with three massive buildings looming right overhead. It's still going to block access to the river for an entire city block. That's why I initially compared it to Toronto's "mistake by the lake", which also happens to be on the north side of the lakefront, but is still considered to be a huge failure in waterfront planning.
 
Only in terms of the sun. No matter what side of the river it's on, it's still going to squeeze the riverfront into a tiny pathway with three massive buildings looming right overhead. It's still going to block access to the river for an entire city block. That's why I initially compared it to Toronto's "mistake by the lake", which also happens to be on the north side of the lakefront, but is still considered to be a huge failure in waterfront planning.
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The context of the developments are very different. The ones you highlight are right next to a destination: the ferry docks, which brings a million+ people a year through the park complex, and strands them in a concrete holding pen where there is nothing to do but look up at the surrounding towers. They also existed in a sea of parking for the better part of 5 decades. Also important contextual point: they were the only tall buildings south of the Toronto Star Building for decades, the only interference of their otherwise perfect lake view, with a view of them wdithwise. I'm sure the continual distaste of harbour developments didn't come from The Star being exposed to construction, a loss of their view and a general NIMBY attitude from them, no, not at all.
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The development below doesn't fail because of its approach to the waterfront side, it fails because of the lack of connection to the rest of the city. The super block is barely permeable for 425 m, and incredibly auto oriented - autos don't just dominate the street side, but they dominate the waterfront side too. In contrast, the Hat site is 200m wide. The Toronto site also has, as far as I observed while living there, and using street view today, no retail facilities even partially oriented towards the water. There is also no method to walk the site boundaries. By contrast, the Hat is set back from the roads on its east and west side by 7 m setback on the west end, and it looks like 3.5 m on the east end, and has retail on the corners to draw people in.

What could be done differently on the Hat site while still maintaining the density required to develop an expensive next to the river site? It is surrounded by institutional uses on all 4 sides, save for where it borders the casino. Breaking the podium in two doesn't connect the river to anyone more closely (it isn't blocking a desire path). There isn't even a pathway along the river at the moment.

What would be the other option? 4 buildings like the short one right next to the Simmons building in the east village, just without any of the amenities of a neighbourhood? Maybe a single more conventional tower at the north end of the site?

Personally I think having as high of density as possibly is the best option given that we want public access to the river, and for that river access to be safe. The restaurants and density help fulfill CPTED goals.

Here is another Toronto waterfront building that brings height directly to the waterfront without a tiered setback:
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Is it buildings looming, or is it good landscape planning and retail that makes it much much much better?

If you chopped The Hat like this, does it really change your opinion?
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@darwink I appreciate the thoughtful and detailed analyses of the sites (even if I disagree with your conclusions!!).

A few points in response:

1. I'm skeptical that this level of density is necessary to turn a profit on this site. I have no evidence one way or the other. It's certainty much denser than anything else built along the Elbow, including very recent developments.

2. There's a clear opportunity to break up the block by extending Park Road down to the riverfront. The Casino may not always be there. Considering that Macleod and 1 st are basically freeways, creating an alternative connection to the riverfront would create useful opportunities in the future.

3. The problem is not the height, so much as the width of the building. Queens Quay Terminal (pictured in your post) is long and narrow. It is also completely publicly accessible at ground level so that people can walk through it to get to the waterfront. It is filled with public amenities, including a museum. Finally, it was built within a heritage warehouse, so it has some architectural merit (we can see from Cidex's other projects the kind of architectural merit that the Hat will have).

My overall impression: this is an important site both in terms of the riverfront and the vista. It deserves a thoughtful development, not one that looks like it was designed exclusively to maximize profit.
 
The medium quality of the drawings in the attachment might be steering you towards conclusions, now the podium layout is awkward for sure, but it isn't for residents only. Outlined in red are all the CRUs. Blue is internal circulation as the application sees it. Small adjustments will make the circulation much better.

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As for extending the road, if that is on the table in the CMLC study, 99% of the benefits will still come whatever happens to this parcel. Wth the neighbourhood however, that road you would have to weigh the benefits of pedestrian spaces being isolated from the busy roads versus having an extra urban canyon with minimal ground level traffic watching everything.
 
The podium is definitely a turnoff along with the developers name, but one thing Im having a hard time understanding(maybe someone can elaborate a bit better) is the obsession with utilizing the Elbow river more, specifically such an isolated location. Its hardly really a river IMO, more like a stream or creek sitting roughly under 30 meters wide. I think the lack of development along our bow river has some people wanting something more creative. When the time comes, we'll have Eau Claire, East Village riverwalk, and something different for West Village. Lots of opportunities to be had. Just a thought, and I completely understand if people disagree, everyone has their own vision of how the city should shape up.
 
Isn’t this also along a portion of the river that is contaminated? Not really a destination but more just a walk by portion?
 
The podium is definitely a turnoff along with the developers name, but one thing Im having a hard time understanding(maybe someone can elaborate a bit better) is the obsession with utilizing the Elbow river more, specifically such an isolated location. Its hardly really a river IMO, more like a stream or creek sitting roughly under 30 meters wide. I think the lack of development along our bow river has some people wanting something more creative. When the time comes, we'll have Eau Claire, East Village riverwalk, and something different for West Village. Lots of opportunities to be had. Just a thought, and I completely understand if people disagree, everyone has their own vision of how the city should shape up.
I agree that improved interaction with the Elbow River should not be a consideration for this project. The Elbow is not The Bow in terms of scale and grandeur or public use. There currently is no activity or pathway on that side of the river as it flows east into Stampede Park. The pathway is on the opposite side and will not be impacted by this project.
Having said that, the size of the build is very imposing and will dwarf everything else around it. I don't know if that is bad thing. I guess we won't know until it is built.
 
I agree that improved interaction with the Elbow River should not be a consideration for this project. The Elbow is not The Bow in terms of scale and grandeur or public use. There currently is no activity or pathway on that side of the river as it flows east into Stampede Park. The pathway is on the opposite side and will not be impacted by this project.
Having said that, the size of the build is very imposing and will dwarf everything else around it. I don't know if that is bad thing. I guess we won't know until it is built.
I think this might be the tower project I feel most strongly against of any that have been proposed in this city the past few decades. It's bad for the city and really bad for the inner city:
  • Impact on multi-family absorption: the site is so large - 1,400 units = just under 10% of the total Beltline inventory of units - that it could perversely impact demand for years, stagnating other projects and sites (although an argument could be made the other way around, where other large sites prevent this one from happening because it requires so much demand to accomplish and is currently a poor location with limited immediate amenities). Our policy of throwing as much density as possible at developers is biting us back here much like other MacLeod Trail developments and the Guardian Towers before it. Totally sets unrealistic expectations on land prices (and therefore barriers to actually moving on a parcel and ultimately on the affordability of whatever is built). Either way the result is more vacant parcels that take longer to fill in and require mega-project scale tower developments to complete.
  • Too much density without design: Worse, the City seemed to not ask for anything much in return for all this density - and if we did, they certainly are not great at asking for the right things. A 9 storey parking-podium will cast permanent shadows on the sites to the north, let alone 150m+ towers with narrow separation between them, negatively impacting the sites to the north forever. In return for these compromises we get... a few affordable housing units and a traffic light? Really? We are trying to build a city here, not produce units regardless of impact. This isn't a NIMBY thing, this is 1,400 units in 180m towers. Is this really the right site and the right design to have all that density contribute positively? Apart from more people walking around on shitty sidewalks between two 4-lane roads, I don't see how this contributes much of anything.
 
178m ain't even that tall, you got towers under construction surpassing that height easily in Toronto and Burnaby, eventually we're gonna have to start pushing the barrier if were gonna accept change. Im looking forward to when we start hitting 200m+ residential towers like many large cities have been in the recent global economic boom. Imagine if they said to stop building the large iconic office towers we have because their too big. We wouldn't have the skyline we have today, probably would've been an Edmonton 2.0 with more parking lots developed. And Im 99% sure this project will be phased, no way they will dump all those units at once. As far as the podium goes, thats the one thing I agree with everyone, its too damn ugly and big.
 

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