Green Line LRT | ?m | ?s | Calgary Transit

[kempes_78]

The issue to investigate would be passenger transfer demand westbound since the terminus is likely too far east. Better than 3rd St SE of course. But would need a detailed analysis on how much better.

I understand your comment and thought. Ridership demand is dependent upon: promising estimates; system requirements, operational characteristics; LRT rolling stock types and usage along the lines; construction planning phases; maintenance; and, operational considerations. Effectively this means a wholesale review of Blue, Red and Green as an isolated section, whilst helpful, must be measured against the whole system.

A month's studies would be needed for this.

 

[lemongrab]

The green line exists as conceived (an independent access to the centre of the business district) because in the 90s the conclusion was no.

Well at this point we certain to accept a number of compromises. I'd be interested in a CBA between ideally placed deep stations and these alternative scenarios - ie. how much track length does the reallocated CAPEX buy? How much frequency does reallocated OPEX buy (say the delta between maintaining a deep tunnel+station and a shallow one)?

On the transfer balance issue I have a few questions:
1. How much changing ridership patterns change things?
2. How much does the reverse flow offset things (red/blue riders going to green)?
3. Would personal behaviour decisions be enough to mitigate it? Similar to induced demand with roads...if you get burned twice by overloaded trains, most people would seek out some of the following:

a. leave earlier/later​

b. choose a different boarding point​

c. use transit less/stop being a transit customer* (a situation we know currently exists on Centre St - I'd venture we currently lose more prospective customers there than we could on this issue)​

You mention the 90s...was that from a broader LRT planning study? My sense from SE specific reports is that the DT alignment was never really prescribed, but the assumption was that it would probably enter 7th or 8th Ave from the east...until the 2004-6 reports where they realized that wasn't feasible if North via Nose Creek did the same thing (which would also present this same geometry challenge; I don't think they ever really mention the transfer issue as much as overall 7th ave capacity). I'm sure it's been considered a lot, but I'm skeptical that it's an overriding objective

 

[kempes_78]

Well at this point we certain to accept a number of compromises. I'd be interested in a CBA between ideally placed deep stations and these alternative scenarios - ie. how much track length does the reallocated CAPEX buy? How much frequency does reallocated OPEX buy (say the delta between maintaining a deep tunnel+station and a shallow one)?

On the transfer balance issue I have a few questions:
1. How much changing ridership patterns change things?
2. How much does the reverse flow offset things (red/blue riders going to green)?
3. Would personal behaviour decisions be enough to mitigate it? Similar to induced demand with roads...if you get burned twice by overloaded trains, most people would seek out some of the following:

a. leave earlier/later​

b. choose a different boarding point​

c. use transit less/stop being a transit customer* (a situation we know currently exists on Centre St - I'd venture we currently lose more prospective customers there than we could on this issue)​

You mention the 90s...was that from a broader LRT planning study? My sense from SE specific reports is that the DT alignment was never really prescribed, but the assumption was that it would probably enter 7th or 8th Ave from the east...until the 2004-6 reports where they realized that wasn't feasible if North via Nose Creek did the same thing (which would also present this same geometry challenge; I don't think they ever really mention the transfer issue as much as overall 7th ave capacity). I'm sure it's been considered a lot, but I'm skeptical that it's an overriding objective

To answer your questions:
1. its cost quantification is dependent upon several factors: excavation depth along with associated supports, utility relocations, ground water control and construction methodology not to mention innovation and lean construction etc.
2. an economical study (as mentioned in my earlier post today) about ridership - several factors to consider based upon reasonable assumptions and known facts.
I do not understand what you mean by 'personal behaviour decisions' - please claify.

 

[lemongrab]

I do not understand what you mean by 'personal behaviour decisions'

Of course not. You weren't programmed to understand.

 

[kempes_78]

Of course not. You weren't programmed to understand.

Especially gibberish.....

 

[InfrastructureEnthusiast]

Well I think one piece is that we just had utility companies spend about 2 full years moving utilities from 11 ave to 12 ave for the previous green line alignment. Lol.

That's definitely annoying if GL ends up going elevated on 10th, but not necessary a total loss.
If 11av is util free now, that row could still be used for a future line.

I've been pondering ways that a LRT upgraded purple line could be extended down through beltline and on to MRU.

I'll post a pic if I get a chance to diagram it out later.

 

[InfrastructureEnthusiast]

Well at this point we certain to accept a number of compromises. I'd be interested in a CBA between ideally placed deep stations and these alternative scenarios - ie. how much track length does the reallocated CAPEX buy? How much frequency does reallocated OPEX buy (say the delta between maintaining a deep tunnel+station and a shallow one)?

Hate to change the subject, I know you really like the idea of these tunnels and underground stations, but seems to me you've unintentionally scored another point for the elevated ROW.

Very few people work in basements downtown, but an elevated station that links right into the +15 system is going to save a few minutes of commute time for many people vs. an underground one.

If there was an elevated station on 2st between 7&8av, there's potential to link in 6 blocks directly to the station via +15, while having near direct access to blue and future red lines for transfers.

It might not be the grand central station with HSR and YYC/Banff rail, but it would effectively be the hub for the LRT network.

 

[kempes_78]

That's definitely annoying if GL ends up going elevated on 10th, but not necessary a total loss.
If 11av is util free now, that row could still be used for a future line.

I've been pondering ways that a LRT upgraded purple line could be extended down through beltline and on to MRU.

I'll post a pic if I get a chance to diagram it out later.

I am not aware of a purple line but there is a plan for 7th Ave to be extended to the east and follow 17 Ave SE.
This line will also be extended west and be routed south after Sunalta to Braeside in the SW.

 

[ahuch]

Hate to change the subject, I know you really like the idea of these tunnels and underground stations, but seems to me you've unintentionally scored another point for the elevated ROW.

Very few people work in basements downtown, but an elevated station that links right into the +15 system is going to save a few minutes of commute time for many people vs. an underground one.

If there was an elevated station on 2st between 7&8av, there's potential to link in 6 blocks directly to the station via +15, while having near direct access to blue and future red lines for transfers.

It might not be the grand central station with HSR and YYC/Banff rail, but it would effectively be the hub for the LRT network.

Honestly, if an elevated station was integrated well it would feel far more like a lot of great transit cities subways as they're (mostly) built for humans with retail, shopping, food, etc. I think it'd be hard to integrate well though.

 

[kempes_78]

Hate to change the subject, I know you really like the idea of these tunnels and underground stations, but seems to me you've unintentionally scored another point for the elevated ROW.

Very few people work in basements downtown, but an elevated station that links right into the +15 system is going to save a few minutes of commute time for many people vs. an underground one.

If there was an elevated station on 2st between 7&8av, there's potential to link in 6 blocks directly to the station via +15, while having near direct access to blue and future red lines for transfers.

It might not be the grand central station with HSR and YYC/Banff rail, but it would effectively be the hub for the LRT network.

That is unlikely to happen as the design will adversely impact cost e.g. a) will it be centralised T piers supporting the bridge with expanded lenths to support the separate platforms?; b) it cannot be a centralised platform - how are the buildings accessed as a +15? c) how many +15 access points per platform at each building - ingress/ egress restrictions, emergency access, crowd safety, if the +15 shuts at 9 p.m. does that section of the line shut down?

 

[kempes_78]

Honestly, if an elevated station was integrated well it would feel far more like a lot of great transit cities subways as they're (mostly) built for humans with retail, shopping, food, etc. I think it'd be hard to integrate well though.

You should look at Taipei and Seoul rail networks which run underground. These are linked by underground pedestrian walkways where there a vendors of all types.

 

[Gazyyc]

The Purple Line is the Max route, running down 17th ave SE. Your unaware of it but aware of plans to ultimately upgrade to LRT at some far future date?
Where is 7th Ave being extended east? You run into a major residential area fairly quick and then Fort Calgary. Are these plans published somewhere? Same with Sunalata to Braeside...sounds suspicisouly like the Yellow Line. Can you link these plans?

 

[kempes_78]

The Purple Line is the Max route, running down 17th ave SE. Your unaware of it but aware of plans to ultimately upgrade to LRT at some far future date?
Where is 7th Ave being extended east? You run into a major residential area fairly quick and then Fort Calgary. Are these plans published somewhere? Same with Sunalata to Braeside...sounds suspicisouly like the Yellow Line. Can you link these plans?

You are correct: re-checked my information, purple runs west and yellows from Sunalta to Braeside.
7th Ave. is beiing extended east directly from 7th Ave: the presumption is a tunnel, a pragmatic solution.
There are plans out there for the Calgary LRT.

 

[Ramsayite]

You are correct: re-checked my information, purple runs west and yellows from Sunalta to Braeside.
7th Ave. is beiing extended east directly from 7th Ave: the presumption is a tunnel, a pragmatic solution.
There are plans out there for the Calgary LRT.

Purple line was designed for low floor, can't extend 7th ave rail to join it without significantly compromising streetscape. The plan was a spur off of the green line at the Ramsay flyover using low-floor trains.

 

[Gazyyc]

You are correct: re-checked my information, purple runs west and yellows from Sunalta to Braeside.
7th Ave. is beiing extended east directly from 7th Ave: the presumption is a tunnel, a pragmatic solution.
There are plans out there for the Calgary LRT.

Can I ask again, where are you getting this information/checking against?
I've looked and can't see any plans (Route Ahead or anything else on the City's site) that reference what your stating are 'plans out there'.

Ramsayite has already posted what is being proposed for a Purple line tie in to Dt (which you thanked but haven't replied to) and I'm trying to think what a spur off from Sunalta would look like?

I'm especially curious about getting from the North side of Glenmore to the South.
If you could provide links, I'd really like to look at them.