1st St Chinatown Tower Development | ?m | 28s | El Condor Lands | Perkins + Will

this cant be about preserving parking stalls, which im guessing are used by office workers not visitors to china town.

there is a small sea of parking across the street in eau claire and if im not mistaken two city blocks of 6 floors of underground parking one block south of chinatown at the bow. theres blocks of parking on both sides of riverfront ave, and both sides of harry hayes.

chinatown is surrounded on all sides by parking.

thats $350mm of development not happening when the cities economy is in the toilet.

id like two know what would have happened if the developer wasnt pitched this beach ball of an excuse to bail.

just a cluster fck all round.
 
https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/major-chinatown-development-goes-back-to-the-drawing-board
After reading this article, it pretty much speaks all NIMBYism and less of a cold feet scenario. Looks like the NIMBYist were about to go all out on the appeal. And I still can't get over that dumb parking space comment, like the eventual goal of downtown is to get rid of all the parking lots and replace it with different purpose developments. They even have a FB page called called "SaveChinatownyyc," like are u kidding me? This development was so damn cool and could have saved Chinatown but now whatever the developer will present again will most likely be dumbed down. ?
 
gsunnyg said:
Note, I said 20 years from now, if that area continues to resent redevolpement with every NIMBYist excuse in the book, it'll definitely become a declining neighbourhood. The goal for chinatown in Calgary should be to attract newer younger Chinese that want both modern urban living and a cultural connection.
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I don’t think we can draw any conclusions about what Chinatown will look like 20 years from now based on this one development. NIMBYism did not kill this development and it hasn’t prevented a steady stream of new developments over the past 15 years. You can look at the civic census numbers. People aged 25-35 are now almost even with 75+, and every age group has been increasing overall.

Also, the video on Vancouver mentions that their Chinatown has been in decline since the 1980s. That’s 30-40 years!! Must be a slow decline! And you can go back to news stories in the 1980s where people say that Chinatown was in decline back then!
 
Just another reason not to go down to that area of the city. Bar none, it is the crappiest part of downtown. I don't understand how the people who live there enjoy watching their community decay and look like shit. Buildings are falling apart, it looks unkept and dirty, disorganized streetscapes, basically a mess.
 
Silence&Motion said:
Again, NIMBYism did not defeat this project! The market did.

I agree that many of the NIMBY arguments are frustrating and contradictory. You're worried about the loss of parking, but you're also worried about the amount of cars?? Make up your mind! Also, if you think your business is so dependent on parking, just move it to the suburbs. Chinatown has many competitive advantages in terms of location, walkability, vibrancy, etc. Parking is not one of those advantages.

That said, I do agree with one of the overarching concerns of the community, which is that Chinatown is being eating away at the edges by very unsympathetic development. Everything from the Harry Hays building to the Bow tower has been designed to squeeze out Chinatown from the rest of downtown. Even the new Parkside condo development, which is technically within the Chinatown neighbourhood boundary and makes a few aesthetic gestures toward Chinatown (namely the dragon gate bordering Sien Lok Park), has put its parking garages facing the Chinese Cultural Centre, while orienting its retail toward Eau Claire.

Calgary's downtown is sterile and terrible. Chinatown is one of the most walkable, vibrant neighborhoods in the city. I think it's a reasonable concern that Chinatown could be devoured by the larger downtown area and lose everything that makes it walkable and vibrant. I don't think this development would have done that, personally, but I can see why the community saw it as the intrusion of downtown-style development into the heart of Chinatown. They've also seen how in Vancouver entire blocks of Chinatown that were home to dozens of small businesses have been replaced with single condos that have two or three retail spaces occupied by banks and fast food/coffee chains.

I know a lot of people are going to disagree with me on this, but I think Elements on First offers a great precedent for developing the empty lots in Chinatown: mid-rise (8-15 storeys), aesthetic nods to Chinatown, small lots. The only problem with Elements is a lack of retail units. Housing demand in Calgary will never be so great that we need to cover literally every block in downtown and the Beltline with 30+ storey towers. Mid-rise districts have their place too.
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Couldn't agree more.

I agree that the NIMBY's concerns are somewhat ridiculous and I imagine that Terry Wong's comments do not represent the entire Chinatown community. I really loved this development and thought it integrated both retail and residential nicely into the community. However, I can totally understand where the concerns from the residents are coming from, because Chinatown has a history of being forced out and eradicated (the current location is literally the third location of Chinatown in the city). Preservation has always been a goal for this community considering it's the home of some of the most vulnerable groups in the city including seniors and new immigrants. I think it's important that we bring in new and younger residents in the community to ensure that the community survives in the future, but I think it's also important to not dismiss the community's concerns and allow gentrification to happen simply for economics. For everyone who wants to boycott this community because they opposed a project within their very own neighbourhood, I hope you can consider their rationale and I invite you to explore one of the most vibrant and culturally rich neighbourhoods in the city. I rather spend time in a "crappy", "shitty", and "dirty" area than a shiny new street completely void of humans.
 
The Familia said:
Just another reason not to go down to that area of the city. Bar none, it is the crappiest part of downtown.
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I am going to *slightly* disagree. I would say that 4th, 5th, 6th & 9th Aves & both MacLeod Trails & 8th Street, 6th Street, 5th Street, 4th Street for pretty much their whole stretch within Downtown are far worse than Chinatown. Our downtown on the ground level is generally ugly and - to varying levels - hostile to humans almost everywhere with the exception of Chinatown, along the river, 1st and 2nd Streets SW, 7th Ave and Stephen Ave. Perhaps a few others I didn't think of.

In other parts of the core, all that those clean glass office boxes with clean and windswept corporate plazas have done to help is give many Calgarians a weird fetish for tall buildings (when they are far away) and the incorrect belief that shiny + tall = always progress. All the while, many of those same shiny and tall boxes bleached the life out of the very places that are supposed to be receiving the "progress". Glad it all looks good from McHugh Bluff though!

Now this proposal was something we don't get much of in the core: density with intelligent and human-centric design. I believe it would have actually been a huge boost to the area's vibrancy. It's a shame NIMBY attitudes helped sway this one (or at least took the blame instead of shaky project economics). But I understand the opposition from a community that has constantly been under-threat for generations. Hell, let's not forget that we essentially have allowed the southern half of the neighbourhood to be in shadow most of the year due to the Bow and Telus Sky, so this isn't even a old thing from the stereotypical "bad old days" where communities weren't listened to.
 
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Good points about the areas surrounding Chinatown, they definitely don't compliment that particular area. I think a big Chinatown development that screams "look at me" would help change that though.
 
CBBarnett said:
I am going to *slightly* disagree. I would say that 4th, 5th, 6th & 9th Aves & both MacLeod Trails & 8th Street, 6th Street, 5th Street, 4th Street for pretty much their whole stretch within Downtown are far worse than Chinatown. Our downtown on the ground level is generally ugly and - to varying levels - hostile to humans almost everywhere with the exception of Chinatown, along the river, 1st and 2nd Streets SW, 7th Ave and Stephen Ave. Perhaps a few others I didn't think of.

In other parts of the core, all that those clean glass office boxes with clean and windswept corporate plazas have done to help is give many Calgarians a weird fetish for tall buildings (when they are far away) and the incorrect belief that shiny + tall = always progress. All the while, many of those same shiny and tall boxes bleached the life out of the very places that are supposed to be receiving the "progress". Glad it all looks good from McHugh Bluff though!

Now this proposal was something we don't get much of in the core: density with intelligent and human-centric design. I believe it would have actually been a huge boost to the area's vibrancy. It's a shame NIMBY attitudes helped sway this one (or at least took the blame instead of shaky project economics). But I understand the opposition from a community that has constantly been under-threat for generations. Hell, let's not forget that we essentially have allowed the southern half of the neighbourhood to be in shadow most of the year due to the Bow and Telus Sky, so this isn't even a old thing from the stereotypical "bad old days" where communities weren't listened to.
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This.

You hit the nail on the head. I'd take downtown Calgary 1945 over downtown Calgary 2019 any day.

191766
 
I wouldn't necessarily take the downtown from 1945 but rather keep all the historical buildings that we demolished such as the sandstone ones. Id also take smaller roadways and no Plus-15. Those 3 things from 1945 would have definitely helped make our downtown more interesting and vibrant on street level.
 
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