Urban Development and Proposals Discussion

[UrbanWarrior]

I think a key thing to remember in this discussion about vibrancy is that we are comparing our metro of 1.5 million to metros of 4 to 11 million people... cities many times our size and age. I think the fact that we are having this discussion and making these comparisons to truly great cities is a positive sign, as we are seeing that it is possible for us to get there eventually. However, we have to be realistic; metro Calgary is only around 100 000 larger than Edmonton and coming up on 200 000 larger than Ottawa, and we measure up very well against these peers in most measures, but we are incomparable to these great cities in most measures. One thing I've noticed in my 7 years here is that the city has been constantly progressing throughout that time, even at a shocking pace. It seems like the city is finally getting its ducks in a row with investments in our green spaces and public realm, as well as the Entertainment District ARP. If projections hold, within 20 years we'll be coming up on a population of 100 000 in the 7 core neighbourhoods (I feel like by then it'll be the 7 instead of the 5 currently - CBD, EV, WE, Chinatown, Eau Claire + Beltline and Mission), in an area of less than 5 km2, that is nothing to scoff at. We're currently just around 50 000 in those 7 neighbourhoods (48 165 in 2018), so we've still got a ways to go, but assuming we maintain an average of 2500 people per year moving into those neighbourhoods, we'll get to this "vibrancy" thing faster than some may think ?

 

[gsunnyg]

I think a key thing to remember in this discussion about vibrancy is that we are comparing our metro of 1.5 million to metros of 4 to 11 million people... cities many times our size and age. I think the fact that we are having this discussion and making these comparisons to truly great cities is a positive sign, as we are seeing that it is possible for us to get there eventually. However, we have to be realistic; metro Calgary is only around 100 000 larger than Edmonton and coming up on 200 000 larger than Ottawa, and we measure up very well against these peers in most measures, but we are incomparable to these great cities in most measures. One thing I've noticed in my 7 years here is that the city has been constantly progressing throughout that time, even at a shocking pace. It seems like the city is finally getting its ducks in a row with investments in our green spaces and public realm, as well as the Entertainment District ARP. If projections hold, within 20 years we'll be coming up on a population of 100 000 in the 7 core neighbourhoods (I feel like by then it'll be the 7 instead of the 5 currently - CBD, EV, WE, Chinatown, Eau Claire + Beltline and Mission), in an area of less than 5 km2, that is nothing to scoff at. We're currently just around 50 000 in those 7 neighbourhoods (48 165 in 2018), so we've still got a ways to go, but assuming we maintain an average of 2500 people per year moving into those neighbourhoods, we'll get to this "vibrancy" thing faster than some may think ?

I agree, we have a promising outlook, id just like to see it happen faster before I become an old cranky man showing up at your local anti- development town hall meetings?. I was just throwing out ideas as why denisty might not be the only cure to vibrancy, we have a lot of room to improve retail and entertainment in our Core. The thing is Calgary is ranked a Beta city so I don't find it ideal to rank it against cities like Ottawa and Edmonton which are not very hard to beat. There are plenty of vibrant cities around the world with the same or even smaller population than Calgary. We can at least try to examine such examples and learn from them.

 

[darwink]

Unless this has changed recently, ACAD/AUOFA has a lease with SAIT that isn't perpetual. Moving it downtown would occupy approximately 500,000 square feet, and a new lease, or capital purchase would move 1200 or so students, 295 full and part time employees. Right now they have asked for from the government around $100 million for renos and upgrades in their comprehensive institutional plan. If could apply that $100 million downtown, plus a top up, you have 1500 or so people moved. Not a huge number, but it is the largest move that is practical among the educational institutions.

No hill to stay on -- ACAD needs new home
Carlson, Lance. Calgary Herald; Calgary, Alta. [Calgary, Alta]13 May 2008: A.13.

...
Given our new vision and mandate, it is time for ACAD to come down from the hill.
...
The inescapable conclusions are ACAD needs a permanent new building and that building needs to be in the heart of the city. In spite of the advantages of our present facility, which we lease from SAIT, we must plan for the future of ACAD.

Our current building was built in 1973 to accommodate 700 students. Our current enrollment is 1,150, and over the next 10 years we plan to increase that to more than 1,500.

Clearly, this creates a certain urgency but there are larger issues also making this an auspicious time for the College to move downtown.
...
Last year, ACAD presented its business case to the provincial government, seeking more than 500,000 square feet of new space in central Calgary, the amount of which was determined via a rigorous architectural programming study.

This new building seeks to be a focal point for the community. We envision it being a place where our students mix with the larger community. A new campus would offer new galleries, a retail art/design component, extension courses, meeting rooms that could be used by community groups and an arts library that could be used by students and the general public.

In its response, the government did not bicker with any part of our vision.

It merely said it felt we could get by with 490,000 square feet in a new facility, something we feel we can manage.

That facility would also include amenities like coffee shops and opportunities to watch artists at work.

In short, it would be a place for students and the public, a place of mingling and experimentation.

Every day, thousands of people would interact with ACAD faculty and staff, making the new campus a community within a community.

Ultimately it would be an asset to the city and play an important role in Calgary's future.
...
In order to accomplish this ACAD needs to be physically in the community. That, ultimately, is the path to our vision.

Lance Carlson is president + CEO of Alberta College of Art + Design

And from their annual report:

The institution occupies an aging facility it does not own, with various mechanical systems nearing or surpassing the expected end of their lifecycle.

The land and buildings which house the College are owned by SAlT and are occupied by the College under a facility license granted by SAlT. The term of the license is through a renewable contractual agreement between the Collge and SAlT determined by the Minister of Advanced Education.

The College operates out of the Nellie McClung building owned by the Southern Alberta Institute ofT echnology (SAlT). The college has occupied the site for the past 33 years for a nominal sum in accordance with the terms of a short term lease agreement with SAlT which has been renewed regularly.

 

[Golfing guy]

There are a few facts people forget to mention about Vancouver. I grew up in BC and have spent more than half my life out there.
The now vibrant false creek area was once an industrial wasteland. It wasn’t till Expo86 that this area started to revitalize. It wasn’t very nice area to be around before the mid 80’s.
The Downtown Eastside was a no go zone for everyone but the hardiest people. It wasn’t the trendy place it is now. Gastown was pretty scary after dark. It wasn’t till all these areas were built up that Downtown Vancouver became a go to place besides Robison street or maybe Granville or Georgia.
Calgary will grow to a very vibrant place once all the areas surrounding the core fill in. Not many cities can offer so many work opportunities that downtown Calgary can.
Anyways just my thoughts

 

[Surrealplaces]

The CBD will never be vibrant except for a few corridors (1st St SW, 8th street SW, and Stephen Ave) unless they can re-invent some of the office building frontage that exists today. The key is in the areas surrounding the CBD (Kensington, Beltline, Eau Claire, and East Village) Most of that is coming along very well with the growth of EV, and the Riverwalk project. Kensington is doing great IMO, and the Peace Bridge and Peace Bridge Plaza is strengthen that bond with the core. Parts of the Beltline are literally crushing it, while parts like Vic Park, and the strips along side the tracks need help. The empty strips along the tracks are a large barrier separating the vibrant Beltline from the CBD. Once those get filled in, ties between the CBD and Beltline should be better. Some hotels in the Beltline would really help, and hopefully the Marriott is the beginning of a trend. Eau Clairte needs some love, and will eventually get there.
Another possibility is to really think outside the box and re-invent the CBD. Converting more offices to residential, and maybe introduce incentives to create more retail spaces at grade in office buildings?

There are a few facts people forget to mention about Vancouver. I grew up in BC and have spent more than half my life out there.
The now vibrant false creek area was once an industrial wasteland. It wasn’t till Expo86 that this area started to revitalize. It wasn’t very nice area to be around before the mid 80’s.
The Downtown Eastside was a no go zone for everyone but the hardiest people. It wasn’t the trendy place it is now. Gastown was pretty scary after dark. It wasn’t till all these areas were built up that Downtown Vancouver became a go to place besides Robison street or maybe Granville or Georgia.
Calgary will grow to a very vibrant place once all the areas surrounding the core fill in. Not many cities can offer so many work opportunities that downtown Calgary can.
Anyways just my thoughts

 

[Surrealplaces]

I would love to see ACAD down in the core somewhere. All things equal cost wise, I'd like to see it in Eau Claire or along the CP tracks somewhere. EV would also be cool.

Unless this has changed recently, ACAD/AUOFA has a lease with SAIT that isn't perpetual. Moving it downtown would occupy approximately 500,000 square feet, and a new lease, or capital purchase would move 1200 or so students, 295 full and part time employees. Right now they have asked for from the government around $100 million for renos and upgrades in their comprehensive institutional plan. If could apply that $100 million downtown, plus a top up, you have 1500 or so people moved. Not a huge number, but it is the largest move that is practical among the educational institutions.
And from their annual report:

 

[Disraeli]

No one here is saying Vancouver or any of these cities are better than Calgary or at least thats not what Im implying at all. Im quite the opposite in fact, I will always start arguing with friends and family as why they should choose Calgary. When measuring great cities, theres more criteria than just vibrancy. Im simply saying vibrancy is one of the areas we seriously lack in and Ive always been consistent on these forums with this view. Im 99% sure if you did a short survey of 100 people from outside of Canada and told them to rank the most vibrant cities in Canada, Calgary would be last in the pack of Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto. So whats wrong in seeing that as our weakness and fixing it? Clearly the City of Calgary also realizes we have a problem so whats wrong in addressing it? Should we just forget about it and risk losing young folks, entrepreneurs, and newcomers who will shape our cities future? And as far as tourist cities go, theres plenty of other Beta cities that are just as vibrant and Calgary gets a fair share of tourists thanks to Banff. If we aren't improving and making our city better than what exactly are we doing? all those redevelopment plans issued by the city can practically be seen as rehab for fixing our mistakes in the past. And at least we can agree on one thing that we continuously hear the pessimistic outlook on Calgary, so why should we not address it try to fix it?

You’re pushing at an open door in suggesting that there are areas Calgary needs to improve upon. But improvement (and our expectations) needs to be held in the context that we are a city of around 1.5 million. I don’t need to expand any more on what UrbanWarrior already said regarding population difference, other than to say that you will find yourself frustrated if you expect Calgary to be comparable with hose cities in terms of downtown retail ext. Regarding improving entertainment and retail in the core: I think that will come with more population. Canadian Tire and the numerous grocery stores proposed are a good example of an emerging inner city market catering to residences rather than office workers and tourists. Hopefully Stephen Ave. will see a change in its retail landscape with all the new residential towers going up a few blocks south.

 

[CBBarnett]

A refocusing of the core on amenities would also be good to see (in addition to residential development). In place of an office-focused core area, plop a few major destinations along 7th Avenue, Stephen Ave and the CPR tracks, particularly in the centre areas between Macleod and 8th Street SW. They must be the most walkable versions of these amenities than anything we have seen so far in Calgary, but that's the breaks if we want to truly create an urban heart that is more than tall office towers:

• Permanent downtown farmers market / market collective with indoor/outdoor flexibility
• music and event venues (as opposed to corporate event venues)
• a transit-focused movie theatre
• Post-secondary school like ACAD

 

[Silence&Motion]

I've always considered the greatness of a city to be positively correlated with how much its own residents complain about it. Hell, there's some Parisians who are still hung up about Baron Haussmann ruining the city's medieval charms in the 19th century.

The extent to which Calgarians are constantly boasting about their city still unsettles me, but I'm sensing a creeping, healthy cynicism about the city that is making this former Torontonian feel more at home.

Being an urban development junkie, one really nice thing about Calgary's urban form is that it can't get much worse! Yes we just lost the Enoch, but it's not like it was Penn Station. In fact, Calgary is steadily and consistently getting better every year (which is not something that Toronto, New York, or London can say). When I moved into Marda Loop 4 years ago, it was a few scattered strip malls. Now 33 ave is approaching Kensington levels of street life with all the mid-rise urban-friendly development occuring in the last 4 years: CSpace, Marda, Ave33, Odeon, Garrison Corner, Infinity, Coco, Lyfe, Courtyard 33, Marda Loop Brewery building (and others I'm sure I've forgotten). I can't think of a single neighborhood in Toronto where a similar unambiguously positive transformation is taking place.

 

[Silence&Motion]

Unless this has changed recently, ACAD/AUOFA has a lease with SAIT that isn't perpetual. Moving it downtown would occupy approximately 500,000 square feet, and a new lease, or capital purchase would move 1200 or so students, 295 full and part time employees. Right now they have asked for from the government around $100 million for renos and upgrades in their comprehensive institutional plan. If could apply that $100 million downtown, plus a top up, you have 1500 or so people moved. Not a huge number, but it is the largest move that is practical among the educational institutions.

Speaking of vibrancy, art schools are incredibly important to the economic and cultural life of cities. They're the one thing you can build that is guaranteed to create a permanent, local population of artists, which then have many spillover effects in other sectors. Downtown needs more students and artists and ACAD needs a permanent, more visible home. It seems like a no-brainier. I'd prioritize this over all the other capital projects that the city just dedicated money toward (I know it's technically a Provincial org, but city support could help as well). Too bad Will Alsop just passed away.

 

[Atticus]

You've raised some great points. As someone who has lived in London, and has spent a lot of time in Paris, and NYC, I think those cities are great to visit, but living in those cities isn't always what it's cracked up to be. There are moments when you say to yourself, 'wow, this city is awesome', but I found those moments came less frequently as time went on. In general I found those cities less enjoyable as time went on.

Bigger and busier isn't always better, you need a balance of vibrancy, and quality of life, and ease of living. Calgary in many ways is an easy place to live that offers a fair amount of urban vibrancy for a smaller city. Decent housing in an inner city setting that is reasonably affordable, compared to Vancouver, London, NYC, etc.. A place where you can raise a family in an inner city neighborhood, and walk to your downtown job if you'd like. Calgary needs to emulate places like Kensington, Mission, and the nicely evolving Marda Loop. Good density and vibrancy, yet still a livable neigborhood.

Sure I'd like to see Calgary's core get busier and denser, but not to the point of London, NYC, or Paris etc.. That kind of density and busyness is better for visiting.

I've always considered the greatness of a city to be positively correlated with how much its own residents complain about it. Hell, there's some Parisians who are still hung up about Baron Haussmann ruining the city's medieval charms in the 19th century.

The extent to which Calgarians are constantly boasting about their city still unsettles me, but I'm sensing a creeping, healthy cynicism about the city that is making this former Torontonian feel more at home.

Being an urban development junkie, one really nice thing about Calgary's urban form is that it can't get much worse! Yes we just lost the Enoch, but it's not like it was Penn Station. In fact, Calgary is steadily and consistently getting better every year (which is not something that Toronto, New York, or London can say). When I moved into Marda Loop 4 years ago, it was a few scattered strip malls. Now 33 ave is approaching Kensington levels of street life with all the mid-rise urban-friendly development occuring in the last 4 years: CSpace, Marda, Ave33, Odeon, Garrison Corner, Infinity, Coco, Lyfe, Courtyard 33, Marda Loop Brewery building (and others I'm sure I've forgotten). I can't think of a single neighborhood in Toronto where a similar unambiguously positive transformation is taking place.

 

[darwink]

I would love to see ACAD down in the core somewhere. All things equal cost wise, I'd like to see it in Eau Claire or along the CP tracks somewhere. EV would also be cool.

Did a bit more digging, their current building is 293,957 square feet. So if the province doesn't foresee upping enrollment anytime soon (the province rejected a push to grow to 2,500 a few years back), the initial investment could be smaller, with provision for future expansion.

 

[retrofiturbanism]

Just to add my two cents to the "vibrancy" discussion. In my experience, cities that had vibrancy also had a very permissive and risk taking attitude towards things.

London- wanna convert a gas station into a food market? Sure, go ahead. Wanna stack a bunch of shipping containers on top of each other, fill them with micro retail and restaurants? Sure, go ahead.
Barcelona- Wanna start a festival with a parade with alternating parts peopling shoot firecrackers at each other/samba drumming? Sure, do it.

I think one of the best ways for us to encourage vibrancy is just generally have a permissive attitude toward new ideas.

 

[Calgcouver]

Just to add my two cents to the "vibrancy" discussion. In my experience, cities that had vibrancy also had a very permissive and risk taking attitude towards things.

London- wanna convert a gas station into a food market? Sure, go ahead. Wanna stack a bunch of shipping containers on top of each other, fill them with micro retail and restaurants? Sure, go ahead.
Barcelona- Wanna start a festival with a parade with alternating parts peopling shoot firecrackers at each other/samba drumming? Sure, do it.

I think one of the best ways for us to encourage vibrancy is just generally have a permissive attitude toward new ideas.

I fully agree. Same reason why an asian street market is so amazing in vietnam or malaysia. Try setting that up in Calgary or Vancouver. Food licensing is impossible, no liquor licensing available. Night markets here have boring Lilac Fest booths with some parked food trucks. Informality and even illegality is what make places and gatherings interesting in a lot of the world. We need to loosen up.

 

[CBBarnett]

Just to add my two cents to the "vibrancy" discussion. In my experience, cities that had vibrancy also had a very permissive and risk taking attitude towards things.

London- wanna convert a gas station into a food market? Sure, go ahead. Wanna stack a bunch of shipping containers on top of each other, fill them with micro retail and restaurants? Sure, go ahead.
Barcelona- Wanna start a festival with a parade with alternating parts peopling shoot firecrackers at each other/samba drumming? Sure, do it.

I think one of the best ways for us to encourage vibrancy is just generally have a permissive attitude toward new ideas.

Great point. Permissiveness matched with a sense of empowerment on public space by communities, citizens, and local small businesses. We see this a more and more within the inner city and some suburban communities spearheading local projects, murals, BBQs, street festivals, Neighbour day stuff etc. If we could match this attitude with a reasonable reduction in regulation on the use of public space people will fill the gaps. Of course, this is the great balancing act of urban policy and city life (i.e. the age-old struggle between someone's successful BBQ = ruining someone else's day in the park). Regulation - or lack there-of - doesn't solve this on it's own, it requires individual's perspectives to change too.

Land uses, building design and a variety of other areas could also benefit from this kind of permissiveness/empowerment. There are plenty of terribly boring office plazas in this city where you can't use them for anything other than nothing. If I want to build a Munich-style beer garden in the cluster of trees at the Atco building out of a bunch of shipping pallets and trash I should damn well be able to ...

Make this:
https://goo.gl/maps/S2k31fkBaMq

Into this: