The Hat Elbow River | 177.99m | 56s | Cidex Group | NORR

[Platopos]

the only tall building i need in calgary is a supertall on the oxford site. the rest can all be 20 floors or lower and ill be happy.

How likely is the building that was proposed by the Oxford Investment Group to be built sometime soon by the way? I know that it's all dependent on the economy as at least a big part of the building was proposed to be as office space but seems like Calgary already has way too much of it already.

 

[1875]

yup, dont think anyones holding their breath

 

[UrbanRED]

How likely is the building that was proposed by the Oxford Investment Group to be built sometime soon by the way? I know that it's all dependent on the economy as at least a big art of the building was proposed to be as office space but seems like Calgary already has way too much of it already.

At the rate we're going we probably won't have more office space developed for another 10 years

 

[1875]

ya my point was more along the lines of i can live without 40-50fl condo towers in desolate areas. what has guardian and i forget the name of the torode tower done to make victoria park vibrant?

also as i was driving north on that stretch of macleod trail this afternoon i was imagining 55fl towers will block out a nice view of downtown as all the other crummy towers have done further north.

 

[1875]

maybe if the 25th ave intersection is ever addressed and those erlton towers are built it wouldbe an opportunity to cinch macleod trail. 6 lanes vs 8 lanes would be a good start to humanizing that part of town.

 

[MichaelS]

Lots in greenfield areas for sure, but couldn't there be density increases in the inner city areas that are desirable? I don't have a map of all the zoning in inner city neighborhoods, but a couple of examples would be the north side of 1st Ave NE in Bridgeland, or say in Sunnyside where Glo was proposed (and shot down because it was too large). It seems there are areas in the inner city that have increased density but nobody is building, and other areas where people want to build but can't.

Sure you do, admittedly you have to know where to look
http://www.calgary.ca/PDA/pd/Pages/Calgary-Land-Use-bylaw-1P2007/Land-Use-bylaw-1P2007-maps.aspx

For 1st Ave NE specifically, the north side was all up-zoned through the City's Main Streets project:
http://www.calgary.ca/PDA/pd/Documents/lud_section_maps/1p2007/23C.pdf
Looks like FAR of 3 and height of 16 with the MU-2 zoning for much of it.

Also pointed out earlier, tomorrow at CPC the City is looking to upzone much of the lands around 17th Ave SE:
https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=69543

No shortage of the type of zoning you are looking for, in the locations you are likely looking for.

 

[FCC1982]

You guys think too much - bring on the towers.

 

[cowGaryBerta]

Wow. Massive. Not bad..the Cidex factor worries me though.

Came across this comment from earlier in the thread, and similar comments throughout the forum - just curious why the negative sentiment on Cidex? Seems like they have numerous large scale and relatively positive developments going on in YYC/YEG and one of the few builders still going strong. Are they known for being un-reputable?

 

[UrbanRED]

Came across this comment from earlier in the thread, and similar comments throughout the forum - just curious why the negative sentiment on Cidex? Seems like they have numerous large scale and relatively positive developments going on in YYC/YEG and one of the few builders still going strong. Are they known for being un-reputable?

They're just cheap and value engineer stuff so it ends up looking terrible.

See: any development they've done in Calgary

 

[Patrick.1980]

Came across this comment from earlier in the thread, and similar comments throughout the forum - just curious why the negative sentiment on Cidex? Seems like they have numerous large scale and relatively positive developments going on in YYC/YEG and one of the few builders still going strong. Are they known for being un-reputable?

Their designs are kind of cheap looking compared to some of the other high-rise developers. That said, I also like Cidex for the fact, they get things built. People sometimes need to be realistic, and understand that they are building rental towers and satisfying a demand, while also satisfying the shareholders. IMO their towers are decent for rental towers. The Hat could have used more glass, but Aura and Arc are perfectly fine rental fillers.

 

[1875]

this seems to work well

 

[Mountain Man]

Cidex's reputation moving forward will be based on how well West Village turns out.

 

[Calgcouver]

Thank you for the insightful post. I am curious about your take on the financial aspect of zoning for higher density. Wouldn't it have the opposite effect? If, theoretically, everything was zoned for half the density that it currently is, the supply is proportionately reduced and this would drive up demand, leading to speculative inflation. Although now that I've typed out my thoughts I may have answered my own question: this is on the presupposition that there is limited supply...

In any case, it's not a perfect design by any means but it has myriad challenges and design constraints - especially wrt to the building/river interface. I mean it's literally at the foot of a river, you won't be doing much digging.... I just hope the north face of the podium level has some decent establishments so it helps tie in 17th ave and Vic Park a little better.

My opinion has changed on this recently moving from development in Calgary to Vancouver. Vancouver honestly has a limited supply of land zoned for density and has physical and political boundaries that create scarcity which pushes prices up on developable land. In Calgary? I think it runs contrary to the norm in Vancouver. I think there is no shortage of land that is a vacant parking lot that has CR-20, CC-X zoning or significant potential for density with a pretty easy rezoning. Calgary literally throws density at developers, my sister backs on to a 3 FAR site in Mahogany with zero transit access, I would be hard pressed to get 3 FAR anywhere outside of downtown in the City of Vancouver and when you do find it, competition is everywhere to buy that land. Prices for sellers hinge on what presumed maximum density is attainable on the land. If you can presumably get 5-7 FAR, people get greedy and price it accordingly. Cap the allowable zoning at 2.5 FAR and the expectation on prices for the seller drops. I think that land is speculatively high in Calgary because sellers price high on inner city land and it just isn't in line with demand. I am of the mindset that demand has largely dried up for condos for the short to medium term and smaller scale developments that are the norm in Marda Loop, Bridgeland, etc. cater properly to the level of demand that is present. Fram Slokker sold land back to CMLC for a reason. If land in undesirable places like East Victoria Park were zoned for 6-storey woodframe, it would develop. Price it like you can build the Guardian towers everywhere? Enjoy parking lots for at least 20 more years, because the land price won't reflect the reasonable demand for housing on that land IMO.

 

[Social Justice]

You guys think too much - bring on the towers.

Haha, nice.

Go live in West End for two years, let me know what you think of a tower neighborhood that wasn't properly planned.

 

[MichaelS]

I can attest to that. It is great! Nice and quiet in the evenings, plenty of available on-street parking for visitors on a Sunday when they come for dinner. Quick access to the river pathway system. If you want all the vibrancy and hustle/bustle, Kensington is a 5-7 minute walk away.

Having said that, things are changing. We had two big towers take occupancy in 2017 (Avenue West End and Vogue), and have more units under construction right now with West Village Towers and Hat 7th Ave than East Village I think. Not to mention, if One Properties moves on their 9th Ave project (2,000 units) in a couple of years, it will be like a whole new neighbourhood. We are getting an Art Gallery (old planetarium), and a refreshed high street when the Stephen Ave revamp occurs (design in 2019).

Complaints of it being non-pedestrian may be a bit true, but the wider avenues (9th and 6th) are pretty much dead to traffic most hours of the day, making walking pleasant enough. You don't always need the heavy hand of a master plan and somewhat second layer of development authority to create a great neighbourhood (see CMLC in EV, or Canada Lands in Currie Barracks), however their large marketing budgets certainly make it seem like those places are the only ones like them.