Scotia Place | 36.85m | 11s | CSEC | HOK

Do you support the proposal for the new arena?

  • Yes

    Votes: 102 67.5%

  • No

    Votes: 39 25.8%

  • Maybe

    Votes: 10 6.6%
  • Total voters
    151
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MichaelS said:

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calgary.ctvnews.ca

'Huge east-west connectivity': Work to upgrade Victoria Park LRT station, extend 17th Avenue S.E. begins

Work began Thursday on upgrades to the Victoria Park/Stampede LRT station, a project that will also see 17th Avenue extended across Macleod Trail S.E.
calgary.ctvnews.ca calgary.ctvnews.ca

Map | Green Line LRT

Green Line LRT map with route line and station locations, LRT network connections to Blue and Red lines and BRT.
www.calgary.ca www.calgary.ca

Also note in my previous post, the Saddledome is being torn down, to create a new surface parking lot.
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The area will be a sea of surface parking for a long time. The parkade is more likely a revenue grab. The Flames can likely charge $50 per car during events.
 
Silence&Motion said:
The best I can say about this building is that the architects really managed to capture the essence of the street fronts in much of Calgary's downtown core.

However, again I ask: why the hell is the public plaza in the SW corner facing the BMO centre loading docks, and not the NW corner where most people will be entering the neighbourhood!??!?
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Possibly the same reason the plaza at The Bow faces SW: warmer
 
Silence&Motion said:
I'm with @MichaelS . I voted no from the very beginning because it was very clear how this project was shaping up: an insular for-profit company using public subsidies to come up with a project that is ultimately designed around their own financial interests and a view of city building typical of elderly billionaires: parking, parking, parking.

This whole thing is typical of the mega-projects that have dominated North American cities from the 1970s onward: massive big-box buildings occupying huge swaths of valuable downtown real estate, designed to attract suburbanites driving in for a single night, spending all their time inside, and then driving back home when they're done. Nothing more than token gestures to the surrounding area.

I very much would have rather had the Flames leave town and let people drive to Edmonton to see aging 1960s rock bands perform than waste public funds on this mess.
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This was/is my position as well. Nothing about the process or players suggested this project would be worth the public subsidy from all the way back in the beginning when Ken King did that wildly bad presentation nearly a decade about about CalgaryNext and the CSEC's cocktail napkin math. It had all the usual pitfalls and warning signs that @Silence&Motion outlined from the very beginning, which are fairly clear now that we see the end result. I just hope there isn't too much further value engineering that takes a mediocre final project and makes it worse.

In the end it'll be a better arena than the Saddledome - as most any arena would be built today - but it's the exact same processes and biases, leading to a very similar overall outcome as the Saddledome, doing little to support the area, city or downtown vibrancy. A 2021 version of the classic 1980s arena: a stadium in a sea of parking lots with a largely inward looking design.

Another way to think about this, what does our $300M investment look like in the medium term once they tear down the Saddledome? What does Victoria Park look like in 2026?
  • +1 A shiny new area, -1 old arena for the same number of rich people to watch hockey games
  • about the same amount of surface parking lots once the Saddledome is gone, more structured parking
  • + 3 new retail bays
  • +100 ish bicycle racks
  • +100 ish street trees in various condition after 5 years
  • Several new concerts per year in theory because the roof limitation is gone
  • 0 net new property taxes from redevelopment in the area
 
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Duck Lightning said:
NW corner has 48 bike loops on the west side and 26 on the north side. NE corner has 26 on the north side and 18 on the east side. The south side of the building has no bike parking. The Saddledome btw has 0 bike loops
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Would you use unattended bike parking at an event when everybody knows there's a three hour window where nobody is coming out? I guess if the Flames are getting blown out the thieves only have two hours to work. (PS: a U rack costs two hundred bucks; I'm only upset about the other 99.993% of the public contribution.)
 
CBBarnett said:
This was/is my position as well. Nothing about the process or players suggested this project would be worth the public subsidy from all the way back in the beginning when Ken King did that wildly bad presentation nearly a decade about about CalgaryNext and the CSEC's cocktail napkin math. It had all the usual pitfalls and warning signs that @Silence&Motion outlined from the very beginning, which are fairly clear now that we see the end result. I just hope there isn't too much further value engineering that takes a mediocre final project and makes it worse.

In the end it'll be a better arena than the Saddledome - as most any arena would be built today - but it's the exact same processes and biases, leading to a very similar overall outcome and a once-in-a-generation project fails to right the wrongs of the past, doing little to support the area, city or downtown vibrancy. A 2021 version of the classic 1980s arena: a stadium in a sea of parking lots with a largely inward looking design.

Another way to think about this, what does our $300M investment look like in the medium term once they tear down the Saddledome? What does Victoria Park look like in 2026?
  • +1 A shiny new area, -1 old arena for the same number of rich people to watch hockey games
  • about the same amount of surface parking lots once the Saddledome is gone, more structured parking
  • + 3 new retail bays
  • +100 ish bicycle racks
  • +100 ish street trees in various condition after 5 years
  • Several new concerts per year in theory because the roof limitation is gone
  • 0 net new property taxes from redevelopment in the area
Click to expand...
CSEC is paying both rental fees and taxes in the new arena. They pay neither in the Saddledome.
 
These are my final thoughts on the arena.
1. The arena was never going to be a spur for development in the area. The Green Line station at 4th Street is FAR more likely to spur development along with the River District CRL
2. From what I've seen of the floor plan they are using the most available space they can to improve the visitor experience inside. As an event goer I would much rather have that than some constrained design just so that the exterior can look nice. Plus the exterior façade is far easier to adjust later on through renovations and much more manageable than something you've engineered for failure on the inside. We were never going to get retail on all 4 sides with the space available without the interior suffering.
3. The majority of Flames Fans (the actual people that will use the facility the most) like the design since the new renders have come out.
4. The space across the street will eventually add additional retail/restaurants/bars ensuring that the arena isn't working alone
5. The ribbed section on the northern half of the west face is actually a window with flame coloured frit!
Don't bother replying I'm not changing my mind.
 
Duck Lightning said:
2. From what I've seen of the floor plan they are using the most available space they can to improve the visitor experience inside. As an event goer I would much rather have that than some constrained design just so that the exterior can look nice. Plus the exterior façade is far easier to adjust later on through renovations and much more manageable than something you've engineered for failure on the inside. We were never going to get retail on all 4 sides with the space available without the interior suffering.
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That's true. Most arenas are designed in a way that they are stuck with the design they have, this one does at least give the opportunity for change at a later time.
 
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