Scotia Place | 36.85m | 11s | CSEC | HOK

Do you support the proposal for the new arena?

  • Yes

    Votes: 102 67.5%

  • No

    Votes: 39 25.8%

  • Maybe

    Votes: 10 6.6%
  • Total voters
    151
The parkade is inexcusable and should be removed. Why is it needed, especially at the expense of the community rink? If they can’t afford the rink, this would be a perfect spot to add more retail and a better plaza.

After sleeping on this, I’m officially pulling my support for the arena. Is there any way for the public to voice their option on the final plans? I remember there was a massive survey gathering input from the public on how they want to see the area. I see that was nothing more than lip service as nothing that was collected was put into place. I don’t think they could have created a more boring and unimaginative streetscape.

Maybe I’m just bitter, but I almost hope this district becomes a major flop just to point my finger at how incompetent the Flames organization is.
 
This thread seems to be full of people who want a billion dollar arena for half price.

Can anyone produce any examples of significantly better arenas in North America that were built for $600MM (2021 CAD)?

This is exactly what I was expecting for the price tag. Its nice, I dont see any serious missteps. More street facing retail would be a nice to have but again, how many arenas in North America have that? How much use would that retail see when its freezing in the winter 3/4 of the year?

Im not surprised that an architectural forum wants something spectacular but tax payers don't want to pay for that and the owners of a small (potentially declining) market team certainly arent going to do it out of the goodness of their heart, either.
 
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Borrowing @darwink 's sketch-up of the site plan, I (very crudely in paint) overlaid it on the site plan for the BMO centre that was in their DP package (found on the November 19th, 2020 CPC agenda). The angle of the arena site plan doesn't quite match the BMO drawings (again, working in paint....), but here it is, with blue being restaurant/bar space, and green being retail:
1628180938159.png


Yes, there is a very tiny retail spot listed in the BMO centre where you see the green square. The blue is the base of that bridge element in the middle of the plaza, and I am being a bit generous calling it restaurant space, as I don't think it has a confirmed use (security guard booth anyone....). For a refresher, the DP drawings for the BMO centre can be found here:

You will note that the DP plans for the BMO centre show the existing substation and commissary remaining in the SW corner of Stampede Trail and 14th Ave SE, so kitty corner to the new plaza for the arena. As a reminder, that means this is what the new arena plaza will be looking at when you exit:
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1628181127187.png


Also keep in mind the plan is to demolish the Saddledome, leaving a giant surface lot in its place. So, don't expect a huge anchor of vibrancy on the south end of Stampede Trail, across from the park/plaza for BMO centre (matching the one to the south of it). This puts an incredible amount of pressure on the two lots on the west side of Stampede Trail directly across from the arena to help create a vibrant place. I don't hold out a lot of hope though for anything in the near to medium term, given that the market is saturated. We haven't had a significant DP in the East Village in 7 years now, and Cidex is sitting on a fully approved, 3 tower project which contains 1100 units just a couple of blocks away, so could take away any remaining market demand in East Victoria Park.

I have been opposed to the arena deal from the start (one of the few "no" votes in the poll on this thread). I was willing to accept tax dollars going to both of these facilities (BMO and Arena) on the hope that we would actually be creating a new vibrant entertainment district as so loudly touted and hyped during the early stages. Now that the designs are in, it seems very clear to me we will not achieve that for a very, very, very long time, despite hundreds of millions of public dollars going into the two largest developments in this district. Very disappointing, now I just hope that both facilities don't get further watered down as construction occurs, as has been seen on so many projects lately.
 
polak said:
This thread seems to be full of people who want a billion dollar arena for half price.

Can anyone produce any examples of significantly better arenas in North America that were built for $600MM (2021 CAD)?

This is exactly what I was expecting for the price tag. Its nice, I dont see any serious missteps. More street facing retail would be a nice to have but again, how many arenas in North America have that?

Im not surprised that an architectural forum wants something spectacular but tax payers don't want to pay for that and the owners of a small (potentially declining) market team certainly arent going to do it out of the goodness of their heart, either.
Click to expand...
I think it is more full of people who would have liked to see different priorities in the design, not necessarily more money spent. As noted, remove the parkade, and we could have easily created a much more active frontage along 12th Avenue.
 
MichaelS said:
I think it is more full of people who would have liked to see different priorities in the design, not necessarily more money spent. As noted, remove the parkade, and we could have easily created a much more active frontage along 12th Avenue.
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But where are people going to park??? Have you been to Flames game? The plan is to develop all of the empty lots around this site so where will 20000 people park?
 
The Familia said:
The parkade is inexcusable and should be removed. Why is it needed, especially at the expense of the community rink? If they can’t afford the rink, this would be a perfect spot to add more retail and a better plaza.

After sleeping on this, I’m officially pulling my support for the arena. Is there any way for the public to voice their option on the final plans? I remember there was a massive survey gathering input from the public on how they want to see the area. I see that was nothing more than lip service as nothing that was collected was put into place. I don’t think they could have created a more boring and unimaginative streetscape.

Maybe I’m just bitter, but I almost hope this district becomes a major flop just to point my finger at how incompetent the Flames organization is.
Click to expand...
You can submit comments to the file manager for the DP here:

Given that the CPC date was already cast in stone before the permit was even submitted, I wouldn't hold out much hope of change though. If you really wanted to though, there is this option......

How to file an appeal

www.calgarysdab.ca www.calgarysdab.ca
 
polak said:
But where are people going to park??? Have you been to Flames game? The plan is to develop all of the empty lots around this site so where will 20000 people park?
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'Huge east-west connectivity': Work to upgrade Victoria Park LRT station, extend 17th Avenue S.E. begins

Work began Thursday on upgrades to the Victoria Park/Stampede LRT station, a project that will also see 17th Avenue extended across Macleod Trail S.E.
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Also note in my previous post, the Saddledome is being torn down, to create a new surface parking lot.
 
For all of the talk about an entertainment district, and revitalizing the area, this building is a parkade that you can happen to watch hockey in. Which explains why it looks like a parkade from three out of four sides. There's nothing but surface parking in the area -- some of which is brand new and publicly funded -- as well as Platform a short walk away. The site will be (especially once the Green Line is built) more transit accessible than a good chunk of downtown. It should not have a parkade. At all. Yes, development in the area will remove the parking eventually. But that development could include structured parking and keep a vibrant streetscape.

It's not hard -- here's an above ground parkade in Frankfurt; I ate a lunch on the sidewalk at the cafe across the street and never realized the parkade was there. (Note: The building labeled SPORTARENA is not in fact a sports arena, crazy Germans. Also, the parkade is the blue building if you can't tell.) Here's one in Raleigh, North Carolina; it's not as effective (although it is higher density), but it's still good enough to keep the street vital.

The conflict is providing structured parking, a pedestrian-friendly streetscape and an arena on the same block; you can pick any two -- the arena could incorporate street-level retail around it (as it does on one of four sides here). As in my examples, you can wrap structured parking with a pedestrian-friendly streetscape; but you can't combine all three because there just isn't enough room; an arena takes up a ton of space, both vertically and horizontally. And if you want to see the combination of an arena and parking but to hell with what the streetscape looks like, well the renderings are earlier in the thread.

A sprawling, car-only city like Raleigh, North Carolina should not be doing better than Calgary at urbanism. But then again, they shouldn't be better than us at hockey, either -- the Flames incompetence has ensured they're beating us at both.
 
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polak said:
More street facing retail would be a nice to have but again, how many arenas in North America have that?
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Some do. But they also have bigger sites. Sure the arena itself in Detroithas a smaller obvious footprint, but it has out buildings which fulfill functions that here they have had to contain in the site.
1628182101881.png

Its loading dock entrance is here:
1628182173107.png


1628182242456.png
 
MichaelS said:
Borrowing @darwink 's sketch-up of the site plan, I (very crudely in paint) overlaid it on the site plan for the BMO centre that was in their DP package (found on the November 19th, 2020 CPC agenda). The angle of the arena site plan doesn't quite match the BMO drawings (again, working in paint....), but here it is, with blue being restaurant/bar space, and green being retail:
View attachment 339566
Click to expand...
Just because something that isn't the same project isn't in the DP, doesn't mean that that is all there is going to be.

Expect some 1&4s at least
1628183214092.png
 
polak said:
But where are people going to park??? Have you been to Flames game? The plan is to develop all of the empty lots around this site so where will 20000 people park?
Click to expand...
20 000 people don't all drive to the games, maybe a couple thousand do and the rest take transit, or park and walk a few blocks. And also, where do people park currently? The parkade is more for the Flames players and management with a small allocation for the public, much the same as the current setup.
 
I'm with @MichaelS . I voted no from the very beginning because it was very clear how this project was shaping up: an insular for-profit company using public subsidies to come up with a project that is ultimately designed around their own financial interests and a view of city building typical of elderly billionaires: parking, parking, parking.

This whole thing is typical of the mega-projects that have dominated North American cities from the 1970s onward: massive big-box buildings occupying huge swaths of valuable downtown real estate, designed to attract suburbanites driving in for a single night, spending all their time inside, and then driving back home when they're done. Nothing more than token gestures to the surrounding area.

I very much would have rather had the Flames leave town and let people drive to Edmonton to see aging 1960s rock bands perform than waste public funds on this mess.
 
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