Scotia Place | 36.85m | 11s | CSEC | HOK

Do you support the proposal for the new arena?

  • Yes

    Votes: 102 67.5%
  • No

    Votes: 39 25.8%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 10 6.6%

  • Total voters
    151
Outside of its history the Stampede isn't better and may be worse than K-Days in Edmonton. Stampede has become what it is in spite of the Stampede organization not because of it. I give credit to the bars, tents, and downtown businesses for what it is today: A downtown wide event that has off shoots into the wider city for things like pancake breakfasts.
Curious, are you looking at the Stampede from the context of a 10-day fair or a year-round organization with deep roots in the community? No doubt there are summer "fairs" that are bigger and better, but name ONE other organization in the WORLD (<<-- yes, I said the world) that has a multi-generational volunteer base as large as the Stampede's (3200+) that engages the community the way the Stampede does; $4 million+ annual charitable contributions, free community events like breakfasts, agricultural events, indigenous partnerships, etc. The Stampede is much more than the average Calgarian sees.

One of the reasons it is so unique; when the Stampede started (in 1912) Calgary was a small nothing town. At that time, the Stampede was a much bigger event than would typically be held in such a small community so the community embraced it... then, the city basically grew up around it. Good thing Winnipeg turned Guy Weadick down :)
 
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Yeah, to those who are concerned about being "tacky"... well, get over it. I still feel something unique, even if it verges on "tacky" would be way better than some bland generic design. At least with tacky it stands out and has the potential to draw people in. What the current streetscape design offers is just more of the same, nothing unique.

"come see Calgary's entertainment district! Their darker concrete striping runs diagonal, not horizontal!!!"
We had an olde tymey themed entertainment district. It was called Eau Claire. It didn't do so well because people found it tacky.
 
We had an olde tymey themed entertainment district. It was called Eau Claire. It didn't do so well because people found it tacky.
I'd say Stephen Ave is actually more of an "olde tymey themed entertainment district" at the moment with all the old 70s-80s entertainment/culture related buildings like the Glenbow, Art Commons, Olympic Plaza, and Telus Convention Centre
 
CMLC is development planner not a developer. Also CMLC has already done their job in Victoria Park with the Rivers District Master Plan. The Stampede has the biggest input into how Stampede Trail gets built because they own that land.
I guess what I mean is I would've liked CMLC to have almost carte blanche with Victoria Park. How many land owners have the influence that the Stampede does on what I would consider a Main Street redesign?

Curious, are you looking at the Stampede from the context of a 10-day fair or a year-round organization with deep roots in the community?
I'm looking at them as Victoria Park's biggest land owner. I'm looking at them as an organization that I'm sure has done a lot of good but this is a development forum so I am looking at them in that vacuum. What they have done with Stampede Park has not been a tour de force. They've long promised to become a year-round destination. I have not seen that change in my 26 years in this city. I doubt the convention centre and events centre will be what changes that. Stampede Trail was an opportunity that looks to already be off course and the 17th Ave extension leaves a lot to be desired.
 
I said this sort of thing on the BMO thread but I have no faith in the Stampede to take advantage of the opportunities all this change gives them.
The Stampede isn’t perfect but we on this forum have to remember that the Stampede is an exhibition and the Stampede grounds are exhibition grounds not an urban inner-city development. Go to any other exhibition grounds anywhere in Canada, the US, or even the world for that matter and they are no better. The first priority of an exhibition ground, is to make it work for exhibitions, not to make it in urbanists paradise.
By creating a Stampede Trail or 17th Ave. extension the Stampede is at least making an effort to improve the urban environment and interconnectivity to the surroundings.
Outside of its history the Stampede isn't better and may be worse than K-Days in Edmonton. Stampede has become what it is in spite of the Stampede organization not because of it.
I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic, but K-Days is a joke. It’s not anywhere close to what the Stampede is in any way.
 
The Stampede isn’t perfect but we on this forum have to remember that the Stampede is an exhibition and the Stampede grounds are exhibition grounds not an urban inner-city development. Go to any other exhibition grounds anywhere in Canada, the US, or even the world for that matter and they are no better. The first priority of an exhibition ground, is to make it work for exhibitions, not to make it in urbanists paradise.
By creating a Stampede Trail or 17th Ave. extension the Stampede is at least making an effort to improve the urban environment and interconnectivity to the surroundings.

I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic, but K-Days is a joke. It’s not anywhere close to what the Stampede is in any way.
They sure market it differently when they are asking for hundreds of millions in tax payer dollars:
1689344182811.png
 
Ignoring the fact the plan seems to be for our entertainment district's high street to have a massive surface parkign lot 355 days a year once the Saddledome goes, the 3-4 years of construction of the new arena is going to be very tight on the grounds as we won't have the Saddledome lot until that project is done.
I said this sort of thing on the BMO thread but I have no faith in the Stampede to take advantage of the opportunities all this change gives them. I have more faith in CSEC to take what was given to them in the land deals for the arena and do something interesting.
It's a big, ongoing missed opportunity - the Stampede can't, won't, is incapable, or doesn't have the authority to scale up. Likely all of the above. There's never been a future vision by the Stampede beyond incrementalism, rent-seeking behaviour, and local empire building.

To the Stampede's credit, they certainly talk the talk - every year for decades a new plan comes out to build a "year-round" event district in one form or another. And it's not like the Stampede doesn't have some numbers to justify actions - so many decades of impressive tourist, economic and attendance numbers always seeming to be growing.

These guys have been at it for 110 years developing the "greatest outdoor show on earth" - there's always been interest in expanding and evolving. What were the outcomes achieved?
  • Historically, this focus and growth opportunity has manifested in the slow expansion into (and destruction of) Victoria Park as a functioning neighbourhood. The city and province helped in this regard, but the rationale offered to why the destruction of the neighbourhood was needed at all was always in the name of "expansion", "developing year round destination", "supporting large events" etc. The early days of this expansion phase is where the Saddledome and BMO Centre are today, all the areas to the north outside the grounds themselves are still mostly parking lots. Going on 40+ years since expansion got serious and, still not much to show in return for trading off a neighbourhood.
  • An occasional public investment into a major event facility, like we are seeing now for this generation's turn. Previous cycles have seen the Saddledome, that nutrium(?) event centre, the Big Four, earlier phases of BMO, the grandstands etc.
  • Hectares of mostly empty parking lots, and equally under-utilized race track consuming most of the site.
More thoughts on the rest of your comment, I think changes are going to be needed for the Stampede. As Calgary grows, and attendance also grows, it is going to soon exceed the capacity of the grounds (maybe it has already, hearing some stories about how crowded it is this year). Either they need to expand the grounds to a secondary, satellite location, or start limiting ticket sales. Your idea of extending the festival would probably help.
This always puzzles me - boosters always downplay the Stampede for failing to effectively re-development and reach their own goal of being a year-round destination, because they are really just more focused on running the festival. This is probably true, but surely capacity and efficiency of that festival and their operations should be the focus then?

They seem to have no vision or interest in decongesting or expanding capacity within their footprint. The occasional interest in randomly plopping down a major event facility with little in the way of a master plan doesn't help - they have so much land, but lots of it is hardly usable for the event they supposedly prioritize because of how inefficiently they have planned their lands. So much space, time and money going to custom-purpose buildings and back-of-house infrastructure that is hardly used.

For me, it's not the size of the grounds that's the issue. It's the operations, planning and focus of the organization that is the issue. For comparison:
  • Stampede Park (excluding the BMO centre, anything north of 14th Avenue SE, and their back of house sites around the river) is about 40 hectares. It sees about 1.2 million people over 10 days.
  • Munich's Oktoberfest grounds is about 40 hectares. It sees about 6 million people over 17 days.
It is totally doable to have a larger, higher capacity festival in the footprint they have - they are just choosing not to.
 
That’s not the Stampede though that’s Victoria Park revitalization isn’t it?
Here is the map on the website, was the year-round walkable part only applicable to the Warehouse District, Neighbourhood Centre, and Riverfront Residential area?


1689350250329.png
 
Here is the map on the website, was the year-round walkable part only applicable to the Warehouse District, Neighbourhood Centre, and Riverfront Residential area?


View attachment 492325
Now I'm wondering if you've ever actually looked at the master plan. Stampede park is part of the master plan because it's within the Rivers District CRL. The master plan details the revitalization of the areas mostly north and west of the traditional boundaries of the Stampede Grounds which are expected to stay as a fairground. The C+E District is what CMLC is branding the area.
 
Things like the Stampede trail design, or the 17th ave extension could be improved, but on the other hand, even having those in the Stampede's overall plans is still a win in many ways. The comment about exhibition grounds meant to be for exhibitions is fair, and the current plans for Stampede Trail and the 17th Ave extension as they today, will still put the Stampede grounds better than most exhibition grounds elsewhere...at least to the ones I've been to.. San Diego/Van/Edm/Tor/Paris/Munich/Frankfurt/Anaheim. I'll reserve my judgment for the 17th ave extension for when it's completed, but as it looks today, it's a better corridor than I've seen in any of the other fair grounds/exhibition centres.

Now that said, we can still critique these projects and strive for better, especially for the Stampede Trail project, as it encompasses the neighboring Victoria Park portions, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
 
  • Munich's Oktoberfest grounds is about 40 hectares. It sees about 6 million people over 17 days.
Munich isn’t a very good comparison, although the land is smaller, it is empty most of the year outside of Oktoberfest, and has little for permanent buildings. It’s a massive parking lot for most of the year.
It’s true, during Oktoberfest there are tents everywhere filled with thousands of people, but once those tents are gone it’s a parking lot.

The stampede having its permanent buildings, allow events to go on all year around even in the winter, whereas in Munich that’s not the case.

I consider Stampede Park to be a hybrid of typical European event grounds. Most European fairgrounds are permanent buildings that are quite nice, but don’t have much space, if any space at all for outdoor exhibitions, or they are big empty lots used for outdoor exhibitions, like the Munich fairgrounds where they are packed full of visitors during the event, but are completely empty otherwise.

Stampede Park tries does both, and isn’t necessarily the best that either one, but it’s also kind of handy having this hybrid model inner city close to everything.
 
It's a big, ongoing missed opportunity - the Stampede can't, won't, is incapable, or doesn't have the authority to scale up. Likely all of the above. There's never been a future vision by the Stampede beyond incrementalism, rent-seeking behaviour, and local empire building.

To the Stampede's credit, they certainly talk the talk - every year for decades a new plan comes out to build a "year-round" event district in one form or another. And it's not like the Stampede doesn't have some numbers to justify actions - so many decades of impressive tourist, economic and attendance numbers always seeming to be growing.

These guys have been at it for 110 years developing the "greatest outdoor show on earth" - there's always been interest in expanding and evolving. What were the outcomes achieved?
  • Historically, this focus and growth opportunity has manifested in the slow expansion into (and destruction of) Victoria Park as a functioning neighbourhood. The city and province helped in this regard, but the rationale offered to why the destruction of the neighbourhood was needed at all was always in the name of "expansion", "developing year round destination", "supporting large events" etc. The early days of this expansion phase is where the Saddledome and BMO Centre are today, all the areas to the north outside the grounds themselves are still mostly parking lots. Going on 40+ years since expansion got serious and, still not much to show in return for trading off a neighbourhood.
  • An occasional public investment into a major event facility, like we are seeing now for this generation's turn. Previous cycles have seen the Saddledome, that nutrium(?) event centre, the Big Four, earlier phases of BMO, the grandstands etc.
  • Hectares of mostly empty parking lots, and equally under-utilized race track consuming most of the site.

This always puzzles me - boosters always downplay the Stampede for failing to effectively re-development and reach their own goal of being a year-round destination, because they are really just more focused on running the festival. This is probably true, but surely capacity and efficiency of that festival and their operations should be the focus then?

They seem to have no vision or interest in decongesting or expanding capacity within their footprint. The occasional interest in randomly plopping down a major event facility with little in the way of a master plan doesn't help - they have so much land, but lots of it is hardly usable for the event they supposedly prioritize because of how inefficiently they have planned their lands. So much space, time and money going to custom-purpose buildings and back-of-house infrastructure that is hardly used.

For me, it's not the size of the grounds that's the issue. It's the operations, planning and focus of the organization that is the issue. For comparison:
  • Stampede Park (excluding the BMO centre, anything north of 14th Avenue SE, and their back of house sites around the river) is about 40 hectares. It sees about 1.2 million people over 10 days.
  • Munich's Oktoberfest grounds is about 40 hectares. It sees about 6 million people over 17 days.
It is totally doable to have a larger, higher capacity festival in the footprint they have - they are just choosing not to.

Stampede has relocated a ton of operations stuff from 14 Ave (just north of Saddledome) and what is now Enmax Park over to the south edge of Ramsay (25 Ave and Dartmouth Road). Doing so required an expensive bridge across the Elbow River.

I haven't been to Oktoberfest, but I suspect the operational requirements of an Ag based festival are substantially different. I won't dig up the exact numbers for fear of being labeled Stampede PR, but they have to house/transport a couple thousand four-leggers in July. And another 500ish carnival folk, too.

The requirements for the 10 day festival are largely in conflict with what we'd love to see for a year round gathering space. But even then, a parking sewer isn't the worst thing in the world to have beside an arena and convention centre. Not to mention the bulk of the park is a dead-end because of the river (with a cemetary and industrial to the south and low density residential beyond the bluff to the east).


There has actually been quite a lot of progress. Perhaps it is still way too slow, but of course Stampede is in the festival+events business, not the yuppie urban redevelopment business. The casino has been a disappointment. Halls DEF have been a major upgrade over the original Round Up Centre. I'm honestly not sure how well used the new Western Events Centre is? It seems like it was a well executed project, though...

To the point about Vic Park, I'll go out on a limb and say there are a lot more people living there now amongst the dozen or so residential towers than ever lived there before? There are conflicting stories about how the Vic Park degeneration really began, but at some point I think we have to accept that it probably wasn't going to gentrify itself out of prostitution and crackhouses any faster than what we've seen (and I'd suggest it would have precluded some of those residential towers, and perhaps degenerated even further amidst East Village redevelopment).


I dunno, it's just kind of a weird spot enclosed by heavy rail, Macleod Trail, and the Elbow River. I'm sure things could be a bit better, but I also think they could be A LOT worse. I struggle to imagine realistic alternatives if only the Stampede kept its grubby hands off things
 
the traditional boundaries of the Stampede Grounds which are expected to stay as a fairground.
Fully understanding it's a fairground, my point is about their influence and what they do with it. To bring it back to the Event Centre, the Stampede likely doesn't have the influence CSEC does over this project but they have more than anyone else (CMLC and the city) that should be able to exercise their expertise in street/neighbourhood building. CMLC has done a good job with EV, outside of maybe trying to go too big with the size of developments but I'm also impatient. While the city has gotten much better as well, they should be given some credit for what they're rolling out in their Main Streets projects.
 

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