Gazyyc
New Member
I don't disagree that elevated rail, when implemented correctly, is fantastic as pointed out in the vid from the excellent Mr Martin above. Vancouver and suburbs, London and the DLR, Berlin to name a few are all fantastic when implemented correctly and into an urban/suburban enevlope that is fitting.
This is part of the problem with them releasing a rough sketch on a napkin with no actual details. We have a roughed in conceptual sketch that as noted is subject to change pending further study.
10th whilst not perfect, does have residental and commercial along it and yes, shadows.
With no design showing the guideway between stations, will it be a single span such as the existing Sunalta section with a wide gap between the lines or will it be a slimmer version with the tracks basically side by side. Will the guideway extend across the entire roadway, encroaching over the sidewalks or will it be retained within the road right of way. My concern here is'nt around will it cast a shadow, yes it's DT there will be shadows but rather will it block out light and the sky simply over the road (great) or will it also block out over the sidewalk. From Bottlescrew Bills and 1st St across towards 2nd St, theres a fairly busy enterainment strip with bars and restaurants. Whilst obviously having a station near will be be a positive in terms of accesibilty, what impact will it actual have on the streetscape, desireabilty of the establishments. If a wide deck blocks out the natural light and projects a permenant shadow creating a dark, cold streetscape, will that invigorate businesses?
Will the large mature trees along the north side be removed, will they be able to survive in the new enviroment?
The previously mentioned Transit systems that successfully employ elevated rail, I would argue do in a manner that integrates the rail with the streetscape and not simply 'caps' it over the road way.
Skytrain as it runs in Richmond, is perfectly scaled in a way that the guideway fits with the street and isnt forced up againt adjoining structures or with significant negative impact to the pedestrian realm.
There's a wide setback from buildings and the station is built off of the roadway to the side. I understand existing buildings etc may prevent that here but could the station be built over the parking lot that is directly beside the envisoned station or a small parcel of it for the station head, reducing the volume that would be over the road way?
In New Westminster, where the Skytrain is DT, the guideways are again kept to the side of the roadway or intergrated cleanly and intelligently with the buildings. Its not simply dropped into the middle of the roadway. Theres still seperation between guideway and nearby buildings.
Metrotown/Burnaby again has the elevated guideway seperated from nearby buildings and the guideway itself is in its own envelope ( not directly above any of the adjacant roadways or butting up against buildings, impacting the nearby streetscape.)
The DLR in London has significant elevated sections but again, they are built to work with the enviroment and streetscapes that they are placed in.
The same with Berlin, their guideways and stations are built to fit the environment, not just can you put it in there.
The alignement that has been presented, in my opinion when viewed with the above often cited examples, fails to incorporate itself in a manner that is conducive to anything other than, can a line 'fit'.
The Province if serious, should have presented a seriously thought out plan, elevated can work, it just has to be built to the enviroment its being placed in. With nothing concrete in the report ( everything is subject to change, pending further study....) people are concerned (righlty or wrongly) that it will look like the Sunalta elevated section.
And on the subject of noise etc, I think its unfair to equate those living on 10th already as being used to dealing with trains from CPKC. I would imagine theres a difference between a couple of trains an hour, 50 or so metres away to a train every 5/10 minutes, 3-5 metres away. But we dont know, because it was'nt studied. I saw an interview on the news the other day, done under the Sunalta guideway and they had to stop as the train came over becuase of the noise. So if it hasnt been mitigated in a study, people will go with what they know, which in my case is an interview conducted 2ft apart that had to stop becuase of a train going over the elevated guideway.
And if we are including photos of 2nd st, lets include where the line is proposed to go, which is to 7th ave. Its not all office, there is pedestrian realm there too.
With all that said, elevated can work but whats been proposed needs alot of work. The Province stating accept it and then figure out the rest yourselves is beyond ridiculous. Not accepting any cost increases, specifically to the segment that they are redesigning and forcing on the city is political grandstanding and bullying plain and simple. If they were serious, they would have came back with, this is the base, lets now finese it together and see where we get. Lets actually make something that works like anyone of the above mentioned systems.
Instead we get stuck with this cycle of BS.
Apologies for the length, time to rest my fingers....
This is part of the problem with them releasing a rough sketch on a napkin with no actual details. We have a roughed in conceptual sketch that as noted is subject to change pending further study.
10th whilst not perfect, does have residental and commercial along it and yes, shadows.
With no design showing the guideway between stations, will it be a single span such as the existing Sunalta section with a wide gap between the lines or will it be a slimmer version with the tracks basically side by side. Will the guideway extend across the entire roadway, encroaching over the sidewalks or will it be retained within the road right of way. My concern here is'nt around will it cast a shadow, yes it's DT there will be shadows but rather will it block out light and the sky simply over the road (great) or will it also block out over the sidewalk. From Bottlescrew Bills and 1st St across towards 2nd St, theres a fairly busy enterainment strip with bars and restaurants. Whilst obviously having a station near will be be a positive in terms of accesibilty, what impact will it actual have on the streetscape, desireabilty of the establishments. If a wide deck blocks out the natural light and projects a permenant shadow creating a dark, cold streetscape, will that invigorate businesses?
Will the large mature trees along the north side be removed, will they be able to survive in the new enviroment?
The previously mentioned Transit systems that successfully employ elevated rail, I would argue do in a manner that integrates the rail with the streetscape and not simply 'caps' it over the road way.
Skytrain as it runs in Richmond, is perfectly scaled in a way that the guideway fits with the street and isnt forced up againt adjoining structures or with significant negative impact to the pedestrian realm.
There's a wide setback from buildings and the station is built off of the roadway to the side. I understand existing buildings etc may prevent that here but could the station be built over the parking lot that is directly beside the envisoned station or a small parcel of it for the station head, reducing the volume that would be over the road way?
In New Westminster, where the Skytrain is DT, the guideways are again kept to the side of the roadway or intergrated cleanly and intelligently with the buildings. Its not simply dropped into the middle of the roadway. Theres still seperation between guideway and nearby buildings.
Metrotown/Burnaby again has the elevated guideway seperated from nearby buildings and the guideway itself is in its own envelope ( not directly above any of the adjacant roadways or butting up against buildings, impacting the nearby streetscape.)
The DLR in London has significant elevated sections but again, they are built to work with the enviroment and streetscapes that they are placed in.
The same with Berlin, their guideways and stations are built to fit the environment, not just can you put it in there.
The alignement that has been presented, in my opinion when viewed with the above often cited examples, fails to incorporate itself in a manner that is conducive to anything other than, can a line 'fit'.
The Province if serious, should have presented a seriously thought out plan, elevated can work, it just has to be built to the enviroment its being placed in. With nothing concrete in the report ( everything is subject to change, pending further study....) people are concerned (righlty or wrongly) that it will look like the Sunalta elevated section.
And on the subject of noise etc, I think its unfair to equate those living on 10th already as being used to dealing with trains from CPKC. I would imagine theres a difference between a couple of trains an hour, 50 or so metres away to a train every 5/10 minutes, 3-5 metres away. But we dont know, because it was'nt studied. I saw an interview on the news the other day, done under the Sunalta guideway and they had to stop as the train came over becuase of the noise. So if it hasnt been mitigated in a study, people will go with what they know, which in my case is an interview conducted 2ft apart that had to stop becuase of a train going over the elevated guideway.
And if we are including photos of 2nd st, lets include where the line is proposed to go, which is to 7th ave. Its not all office, there is pedestrian realm there too.
With all that said, elevated can work but whats been proposed needs alot of work. The Province stating accept it and then figure out the rest yourselves is beyond ridiculous. Not accepting any cost increases, specifically to the segment that they are redesigning and forcing on the city is political grandstanding and bullying plain and simple. If they were serious, they would have came back with, this is the base, lets now finese it together and see where we get. Lets actually make something that works like anyone of the above mentioned systems.
Instead we get stuck with this cycle of BS.
Apologies for the length, time to rest my fingers....
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