Green Line LRT | ?m | ?s | Calgary Transit

Go Elevated or try for Underground?

  • Work with the province and go with the Elevated option

    Votes: 41 78.8%

  • Try another approach and go for Underground option

    Votes: 7 13.5%

  • Cancel it altogether

    Votes: 1 1.9%

  • Go with a BRT solution

    Votes: 3 5.8%
  • Total voters
    52
darwink said:
It all depends on what the contracts come in at for phase 1. Too high, find more money. Low enough, go to 16th Ave. Even lower, go to McKenzie Towne as well. Then the next $750m-$1 billion goes to 64th Ave North, far enough to truncate the BRT. Hopefully with a 16 Ave N grade separation.
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Initially I wanted this too, but I get the impression that it's not going to happen, and will be at-grade, and I'm content with that. The costs to make it grade separated may be significantly more, and what's the trade off benefit? Will it really improve traffic on 16th avenue which is a traffic light parade? Does being at grade make 16th any worse than it is currently? That's really the only reason I can think of to do grade separation aside from accident prevention with the train.

But with this being a Low-floor train, the whole point is to have it integrated with the traffic essentially so you don't have to put up these costly grade separated infrastructures everywhere.
 
We’re spending probably half a billion dollars to grade separate at Macleod (22,000+26,000 vehicles). Spent $70 million to grade separate the west LRT at 45th Street, baked in grade separation at Bow (44,000) and 17th (over 20,000). We’re planning to spend a fair amount to do so at McKnight. We did do 64th Ave in the NE grade separated as well (that was an add on expense too), it currently takes 24,000 crossings. At 69th Street there is a double separation for 26 and 15 thousand vehicles respectively. The Heritage Drive level crossing? 22,000 a day with no interacting turning movements. The city is planning to grade separate it and the lack of it led the city to spike a TOD project adjacent to the station. 162nd is 24,000 and not at an intersection.
But 16th Ave and it’s 50,000 crossing Centre St brings a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯? Not doing so will be a monumental mistake and either lead to the LRT not having a priority movement, traffic being absolutely horrendous, or both.

Lest we forget Edmonton’s attempts to save less than $50 million?
1626022412103.png

“
City council may be able to avoid future traffic snarls along the Metro Line at Princess Elizabeth Avenue, but it will cost up to $95 million.

The line has caused long traffic delays where it intersects with Princess Elizabeth Avenue near the NAIT station since the line opened last September. In some cases, drivers have had to wait up to 10 minutes to clear the lights.”

Those crossings? A 26,000 and 20,000 road respectively.
 
darwink said:
We’re spending probably half a billion dollars to grade separate at Macleod (22,000+26,000 vehicles). Spent $70 million to grade separate the west LRT at 45th Street, baked in grade separation at Bow (44,000) and 17th (over 20,000). We’re planning to spend a fair amount to do so at McKnight. We did do 64th Ave in the NE grade separated as well (that was an add on expense too), it currently takes 24,000 crossings. At 69th Street there is a double separation for 26 and 15 thousand vehicles respectively. The Heritage Drive level crossing? 22,000 a day with no interacting turning movements. The city is planning to grade separate it and the lack of it led the city to spike a TOD project adjacent to the station. 162nd is 24,000 and not at an intersection.
But 16th Ave and it’s 50,000 crossing Centre St brings a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯? Not doing so will be a monumental mistake and either lead to the LRT not having a priority movement, traffic being absolutely horrendous, or both.

Lest we forget Edmonton’s attempts to save less than $50 million?
View attachment 334081
“
City council may be able to avoid future traffic snarls along the Metro Line at Princess Elizabeth Avenue, but it will cost up to $95 million.

The line has caused long traffic delays where it intersects with Princess Elizabeth Avenue near the NAIT station since the line opened last September. In some cases, drivers have had to wait up to 10 minutes to clear the lights.”

Those crossings? A 26,000 and 20,000 road respectively.
Click to expand...
I get what you're saying and I do hope that 16th is grade separate so then the LRT has complete priority within that corridor, and is protected from possible vehicle/pedestrian collisions. But depending on how much vehicle traffic is reduced on Centre ST in lieu of the LRT, it may end up being the case that the current light sequence at Centre / 16th will essentially remain the same for cross traffic. If that's the case, I could see the city choosing the cheaper option of doing at-grade.

I do think though that the safest, and best option would be to grade separate it considering the volume of traffic 16th gets. Don't be in a position of regretting not doing it down the road.
 
Considering what I think the probable incremental cost would be —$30 million (station at grade but sub-optimally placed)-$100 million (station at least trenched with mezzanines on the North and south sides of the intersection for four corner access) I think it would be pretty wise to not lock us in at grade forever to at grade.

Replacing the at grade station during the future north bound expansion would also be an option, but with a probable shut it down for at least 6 months to a year+the cost of replacing something (perhaps $5-10 million down the hole) I don’t think it is the best move especially if we go north almost immediately after.
 
Mayoral candidates on the future of the Green Line:
livewirecalgary.com

Future Green Line: Will your mayoral candidates go south... or north? - LiveWire Calgary

After a year of waiting in the station for the goods to be delivered, Calgary will move forward on its $5.5 billion Green Line transit project. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was in town to make the official federal announcement July 7. A very short time earlier, the province made their...
livewirecalgary.com livewirecalgary.com
 
Counter-point to the grade separation issue:

Everyone is looking at this topic exclusively as transportation engineers. The whole point of selecting low-floor LRVs for Green Line was so the train would integrate better into communities than the existing LRT and allow principles of good urban design to accompany transit planning for the first time ever in Calgary.

The decision to trench the 45 St crossing on the west LRT might have made sense from a transportation engineering perspective but was a terrible decision from an urban planning perspective. That trench kills any development potential along that entire corridor, creates a massive dead-zone along what is meant to be one of Calgary's premiere mainstreets and essentially walls off the community to the north.

Grade separating the Green Line for 16th Ave would require tunnel portals to the north and south which would interfere with the plan to place pedestrian crossings on Centre St every two blocks and would also further restrict vehicle turning movements to access the surrounding businesses and communities off Centre St. From an urban planning perspective grade separating 16th Ave hurts more than it helps and I would even argue that from a transportation engineering perspective it's not needed.

Don't forget the lights at that intersection are timed to accommodate the north/south flow of buses on Centre St that run every 90 seconds during rush-hour. The City of Calgary has to push 6 extended-buses through that intersection to equal the capacity of a single Green Line train. Given the fact Centre St will only be 2 lanes once Green Line goes in and trains will be running at 5 minute intervals max and will still be moving more people than the buses going now I would argue the lights can be timed to actually increases the east/west traffic flow on 16th Ave and still allow more people to move north/south along Centre St than happens today all without the need for expensive grade separation that will also hurt the surrounding urban realm.
 
outoftheice said:
Counter-point to the grade separation issue:

Everyone is looking at this topic exclusively as transportation engineers. The whole point of selecting low-floor LRVs for Green Line was so the train would integrate better into communities than the existing LRT and allow principles of good urban design to accompany transit planning for the first time ever in Calgary.

The decision to trench the 45 St crossing on the west LRT might have made sense from a transportation engineering perspective but was a terrible decision from an urban planning perspective. That trench kills any development potential along that entire corridor, creates a massive dead-zone along what is meant to be one of Calgary's premiere mainstreets and essentially walls off the community to the north.

Grade separating the Green Line for 16th Ave would require tunnel portals to the north and south which would interfere with the plan to place pedestrian crossings on Centre St every two blocks and would also further restrict vehicle turning movements to access the surrounding businesses and communities off Centre St. From an urban planning perspective grade separating 16th Ave hurts more than it helps and I would even argue that from a transportation engineering perspective it's not needed.

Don't forget the lights at that intersection are timed to accommodate the north/south flow of buses on Centre St that run every 90 seconds during rush-hour. The City of Calgary has to push 6 extended-buses through that intersection to equal the capacity of a single Green Line train. Given the fact Centre St will only be 2 lanes once Green Line goes in and trains will be running at 5 minute intervals max and will still be moving more people than the buses going now I would argue the lights can be timed to actually increases the east/west traffic flow on 16th Ave and still allow more people to move north/south along Centre St than happens today all without the need for expensive grade separation that will also hurt the surrounding urban realm.
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This post here is why I'm okay with at-grade crossing for 16th since the low-floor trains are designed for this, and the area around that station as a whole is intended to be a urban corridor both to the north/south, and east/west. It's a case where at-grade is likely just as good as being underground, while being cheaper.
 
Joborule said:
This post here is why I'm okay with at-grade crossing for 16th since the low-floor trains are designed for this, and the area around that station as a whole is intended to be a urban corridor both to the north/south, and east/west. It's a case where at-grade is likely just as good as being underground, while being cheaper.
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Likely just as good? Edmonton's was also supposed to be likely just as good. If we are fine with this crossing at grade, we may as well re-engineer the entire line to have fewer grade separations and be a whole lot cheaper and slower, and extend far longer on day 1.

I want to demonstrate how different this is from our current practice, even on the greenline itself.

Applying a similar metric (crossing a 50,000 vehicle a day intersection at grade is ok) would lead to level crossings in no particular order at:
144th
Country Hills Blvd
96th
McKnight
Blackfoot
Glenmore
Barlow/114th
the entry into Seton
12th St SE
Olympic Way
Macleod Tr North and South Bound
1st St SE
Highfield
34th Ave
Ogden Road
90th Ave
130th

On the Red Line we could also retire the tunnels when they need renewal crossing 16th Ave N, and retire the bridges crossing 10th St and 14th Streets. Could eliminate all bridges and tunnels west of Crowchild on the West Line including the crossing on Sarcee. On the NE could eliminate the tunnel from Memorial to 36th, plus the one under 64th NE. On the South Line why not bring the line to grade at Southland, Anderson, Canyon Meadows and Shawnessy instead of renewing those bridges as they reach the end of their lives. On the SW BRT we should eliminate the grade separation at 90th Ave.

TLDR: Crossing 16th Ave at grade is a huge change from practice to date, and will be by far the busiest crossing in the city.
 
YYCguy said:
The environmental issues in Lynnwood and Ogden are forever going to be detriment to building anything around the station. It’s a crying shame that nothing can or ever will be done in that area.
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I thought they were going to remediate that area, tearing down the houses was all that is happening?
 
Morshed said:
I had this idea too when I saw the news about YYC-Banff rail. It's going to make a stop in downtown so might as well build a station similar to Union Station in Toronto. Today City council announced this:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1420849160958345216
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They didn't announce this.

Jeff Davison made a motion to get some media coverage.

What was passed by city council was this - futher endorsing the project:
1627670152682.png


Of note, as a rail project, the city doesn't even have land-use power to stop a station and related buildings (courts have previously drawn the line at hotel/office yes, condos no) from being built in any configuration wherever the private proponents want it.
 
Silence&Motion said:
d0a7754b921a9267704b5f3e559d7877.jpg


Too bad we demolished our station. Although I think I'd probably take the Calgary Tower over this dinky building. Does anyone know what remains of the train station at the base of the tower? There's clearly still platforms along the tracks.
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My impression is the old waiting room, which was judged as too small when it opened, no longer exists. Perhaps as part of the vertigo theatre complex?

The platforms are wide though at 4.5m. good bones to add a concourse.
 
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