Is elevated off the table? I know there's an issue of height over the CP tracks, but we managed it at Sunalta. If I recall, the building owners didn't like elevated, but that shouldn't be a show stopper.
Green Line LRT | ?m | ?s | Calgary Transit
- Thread starter Surrealplaces
- Start date
CalgaryTiger
Senior Member
Only thing off the table is underground. In Rick Bell's latest Dreeshan talked about a 10-1 savings. Still insisted on spending the savings on going south. I would go north before going south of Shepard. Gondek still wants it going to Eau Claire, I do not think that's a forgone conclusion.
FCC1982
Active Member
What an utterly stupid mandate if that is indeed the case.
Red Star
New Member
Didn't seem to be an issue with Sunalta. If the province is dead-set on an elevated LRT, why not build an elevated section over the CP tracks with stations that also span the CP tracks and have access to both downtown and the beltine.
Pros:
-Serves the Beltline and Downtown
-Cheaper than tunneling
-Stations could tie into the +15 system
-Potential to tie into the west LRT in the future
Cons:
-Farther walk to Office buildings
-Requires the demolition or expensive re-working of two concrete parkades from the 1960's
Black circles are possible stations.
lemongrab
Active Member
I've always thought the benefits of connecting the SE and N lines were overstated, while the desire to do so has forced some expensive alignment decisions.
Of course, terminating lines in the core poses it's own challenges, but here's a wacky idea that resolves that, too:
GL Station would be on 7th Ave in the block between WB 1st St station and EB 3rd St station. Which means jogging the existing tracks north by a few meters so you have 3 lines on that block, which could be pretty disruptive, but I'd think you could do the prep work overnight and knock out the final change over a long weekend.
10/10 for integration with red/blue lines. You could add a station on 9th in front of Gulf Canada Square. There are only two driveways on 9th that you'd have to manage
I also feel like a single track can be optimal for streetscape and overall function. I wonder if you could go back to the 11th and 12th couplet idea...could you do a single track on 12th without hindering access to utilities?
Only significant cost is a bit of work on the 1st and 5th underpasses. 5th looks like you could almost just slap it in there today, but it needs a bit more clearance. 1st would be a bigger project.
Then you'd do something similar for the north line, but probably on 6th (or you've got more space for a more typical terminus if you go UG from 4th-8th)
Of course, terminating lines in the core poses it's own challenges, but here's a wacky idea that resolves that, too:
GL Station would be on 7th Ave in the block between WB 1st St station and EB 3rd St station. Which means jogging the existing tracks north by a few meters so you have 3 lines on that block, which could be pretty disruptive, but I'd think you could do the prep work overnight and knock out the final change over a long weekend.
10/10 for integration with red/blue lines. You could add a station on 9th in front of Gulf Canada Square. There are only two driveways on 9th that you'd have to manage
I also feel like a single track can be optimal for streetscape and overall function. I wonder if you could go back to the 11th and 12th couplet idea...could you do a single track on 12th without hindering access to utilities?
Only significant cost is a bit of work on the 1st and 5th underpasses. 5th looks like you could almost just slap it in there today, but it needs a bit more clearance. 1st would be a bigger project.
Then you'd do something similar for the north line, but probably on 6th (or you've got more space for a more typical terminus if you go UG from 4th-8th)
FCC1982
Active Member
This is a pretty solid option IMO.
Makes use of the CPR ROW and if extended west could possibly increase the incentive to build on the vacant lots beside the tracks.
jhappy77
Active Member
The most challenging part of connecting the SE to N corridor is going from 7th Ave to the Arena. But it would be stupid for either the N or SE lines to not have a transfer station at 7 Ave, so if they both need to go to 7 Ave anyways, connecting the two is really not that much additional work or cost all things considered. If they are separate, you also get permanently increased operating costs from needing separate garages for the rolling stock.
ByeByeBaby
Active Member
You don't need anything that complicated; here's 1st St (north is to the right):
1st St becomes transit/ped only (with bikes if room, but I'm not sure there would be) between 9th Ave and 7th Ave. Bus stops between 8th and 9th aves, both sides available for loading and time points. Through buses can pass along the tracks. Between 7th and 8th aves, the west lanes are through bus - one southbound and one northbound. The east center lane is the stub tracks at a station, and the eastmost lane is used to expand the pedestrian realm to handle the station and associated fixtures. The only slightly weird thing is when northbound buses meet a reversing southbound train, but they could put a signal to stop buses back of the switch; if professional transit drivers are the only users I'm not too worried.
The same thing could be done for a north leg of the green line, on the other side of 7th Ave; the train would come down the Centre Street Bridge, go one block east on 3rd ave (where there would be a Chinatown station), and then do the mirror of this setup, with buses stopping between 5th and 6th Ave (which could also maintain access to the Suncor parkade). Anyone wanting to go NC-SE would have to basically just cross the street, which would be a small hassle, but would avoid the problems associated with LRT lines crossing. The lines could be joined up as part of the work when an 8th Ave subway is built.
1st St becomes transit/ped only (with bikes if room, but I'm not sure there would be) between 9th Ave and 7th Ave. Bus stops between 8th and 9th aves, both sides available for loading and time points. Through buses can pass along the tracks. Between 7th and 8th aves, the west lanes are through bus - one southbound and one northbound. The east center lane is the stub tracks at a station, and the eastmost lane is used to expand the pedestrian realm to handle the station and associated fixtures. The only slightly weird thing is when northbound buses meet a reversing southbound train, but they could put a signal to stop buses back of the switch; if professional transit drivers are the only users I'm not too worried.
The same thing could be done for a north leg of the green line, on the other side of 7th Ave; the train would come down the Centre Street Bridge, go one block east on 3rd ave (where there would be a Chinatown station), and then do the mirror of this setup, with buses stopping between 5th and 6th Ave (which could also maintain access to the Suncor parkade). Anyone wanting to go NC-SE would have to basically just cross the street, which would be a small hassle, but would avoid the problems associated with LRT lines crossing. The lines could be joined up as part of the work when an 8th Ave subway is built.
CalgaryTiger
Senior Member
Isn't the issue with this otherwise great idea that the trains are too long to fit on a single block? Operating 2-car trains means a length of 84 metres, too long for one block. i don't see them going down to 1-car trains. Cutting off Stephen Ave isn't an option I want explored either.
Where this could work?
Macleod Trail, with an extended ROW on the east side of Macleod under the CPKC tracks? In the way is an Enmax building at the substation south of the tracks and a non descript one story building north of the tracks. The block is long enough to accommodate the 2-car train. One not so minor issue with this... you're still dumping passengers at City Hall Station.
dazzlingdave88
Active Member
Great question....Sadly I don't think the value of a human life makes it very far into the calculation. From the best that I could find out, a high end estimate of the value of a human life is $10 million. We've had close to 100 people killed by the C-Train since 1981. Roughly 2/3 were accidents. $650 million since 1981.
That doesn't include associated costs, such as impact on families, C-Train driver, witnesses and first responders. As well as lost worker productivity from delays caused throughout the system. It also doesn't predict future costs associated with more deaths. I'd imagine the rate of deaths each year would increase with more at grade lines and more population in Calgary.
Is that alone worth tunneling? I'm not sure.
Isn't 84 metres exactly the maximum size though, and why this vehicle length was chosen, given the future plans to run on Centre St N where the stops will be on short blocks between avenues?
darwink
Senior Member
IIRC originally the underground stations were going to be ~120m, to approach similar capacity as the existing 125m planned max for the red line. Over time, part of the value engineering was cutting the stations down to two car trains.
CalgaryTiger
Senior Member
I get just under 84 metres for that block. So it is possible.
I still don't see them dead-ending the line at 7th Ave, even though it would only be a short transfer to take the dead-ended north section on the other side of 7th.
Red Star
New Member
Thanks for posting this.
Based on simple calculations:
1. A four car high-floor train can accommodate 724 passengers and comes in at 104m in length.
2. A two car low-floor train can accommodate 576 passengers and comes in at 84m in length.