Green Line LRT | ?m | ?s | Calgary Transit

Go Elevated or try for Underground?

  • Work with the province and go with the Elevated option

    Votes: 24 70.6%
  • Try another approach and go for Underground option

    Votes: 7 20.6%
  • Cancel it altogether

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • Go with a BRT solution

    Votes: 2 5.9%

  • Total voters
    34
Old mustard seed coming down..View attachment 604557
This being for the Green Line is a bit misleading. The city owns this land now because it is where the station entry was supposed to be but I don't this being used for the Green Line other than a staging area for however it gets beyond 4th Street. I'm sure they want to take the building down so it doesn't become a public safety issue since it is vacant.
 
I recall the downtown stakeholder being the ones really pushing for tunnels. Personally, I just don't see elevated affecting property values all that much but they're definitely worried about it. Couldn't you integrate your building into an elevated line via +15 and have that increase your property value? Should they provide input into the best way to go through downtown, sure. I mean, what would they say that hasn't already been said? Any of the streets that would work are not retail streets like Stephen Ave.

It's really just 3-4 buildings that could do this: Core/TD Square, Scotia Centre Mall, Intact Building, and Bow Parkade. Not sure any of them would really mind beyond the construction distruption?

But I count about 10 high rises and another dozen or so mid rises...maybe they are the NIMBYs NIMFFLOS?

“The province is doing good work, and I think the municipality is doing good work, and we just want to be there at the table with their specialist as they determine, ‘hey, we want to look at this street’,” Garner said.
This suggests CDA wants something other than 2nd...but I wonder how much input they've sought from tenants/owners on other option(s)?

Data from the trio of organizations needs to be looked at as part of the conversation, Garner said. This includes “employment clusters” moving between different buildings, of which Garner gave an example:

“(Say) there’s a large tenant that’s moving up to the Petro-Canada building, we know that stuff and we can bring that to the table.”

He says they also know what’s currently being developed in downtown, what their plans are, and what tenants they’re trying to “recruit” downtown.

“You’d hate to recruit a large tenant to downtown and then all of a sudden find out, oh, the Green Line’s going there . . . It’s going to be under construction for three years,” said Garner.

Those things can help facilitate and ultimately build a great design he said, noting some of their expertise could help determine which areas might be better suited for elevated track or at-grade.

And I suspect he's just making an off the cuff example, but mildly interesting that he uses the old name (instead of Suncor Energy Centre)...branding folks can be pretty picky on that stuff. But also interesting Suncor is between Centre and 1st...so not on the present alignment? Or maybe AECOM is looking at 1st St SW...
 
I recall the downtown stakeholder being the ones really pushing for tunnels. Personally, I just don't see elevated affecting property values all that much but they're definitely worried about it. Couldn't you integrate your building into an elevated line via +15 and have that increase your property value? Should they provide input into the best way to go through downtown, sure. I mean, what would they say that hasn't already been said? Any of the streets that would work are not retail streets like Stephen Ave.
It's a public project, there's no harm for them in advocating for the best, albeit expensive solution. Street running likely affects retail, 7th ave is basically a transit corridor only.
 
Concerning that “at grade” is still being considered.
So many issues with this, if you weigh the choices I do not see at grade winning out unless they do just want to build the cheapest option.

What would it look like: Between 9th and 7th Avenues on almost any street you could fit a station and not cut off any road but you would break up your pedestrian street with a station. I struggle to think of a design that could make that work. Getting through 7th Avenue could be done at grade but the logistics of operating intersecting lines are significant. There's no putting a station through 6th, 5th or 4th Avenues but north of 4th Avenue you could fit a station and not cut off any through road.

Could it be done, sure. IMO it shouldn't even be considered but I'm sure it is. Maybe the savings gets them to Seton or... North of the Bow River!
 
I could see an option using 6th Ave that gives several options for where you're at-grade or underground - most importantly it would be shallow cut+cover through areas that won't suffer much from the disruption:

Screenshot 2024-10-17 at 11.50.42 AM.png


WB transfer would still go to 1st St SW station (missing on this map). Could do a station at 8 Ave (or leave it for an infill). Grade options:

1. Underground the whole way = 1500 meters; 1-2 stations

2. Come to surface north of 9 Ave (~300m UG), 8th Ave station at-grade then interline for 1 block before turning west on 6th and going UG again at Bow Valley College (~500m at-grade), UG until north of 4th ave with a station at the Bow (~700m UG)

3. Come to surface north of 9 Ave (~300m UG), stay at grade across Macleods for surface station at Bow, then go under 5th and 4th

4. Come to surface north of 9 Ave (~300m UG), stay at grade the rest of the way


I could see arguments for any of the above. I really don't think at-grade crossings with 1-way streets are that bad. Main disruption is sequential signal timing, but who gives a shit? So then you gotta weigh the brief interline with Blue Line east; it wouldn't be hard to schedule in the near term, but could be a problem down the road, but it wouldn't be impossible to do an underpass if necessary.

The Big Head Plaza would actually be more awesome with less vehicle traffic and the occasional train...that actually gives me world-class city vibes moreso than a low ridership subway.

No beltline, no Eau Claire, no PIP impact, no bridge over the Bow River. Shortens the route through DT by about 600 meters overall
 
There will be ZERO underground anything in the green line I am afraid. The UCP would not allow it to look any worse than it already does by admitting it may have been wrong, and we need some underground. Even though I know cut and cover is very different than tunneling. I am sure the mandate given to AECOM is to not even consider anything that goes 'underground'.
 
Is elevated off the table? I know there's an issue of height over the CP tracks, but we managed it at Sunalta. If I recall, the building owners didn't like elevated, but that shouldn't be a show stopper.
Only thing off the table is underground. In Rick Bell's latest Dreeshan talked about a 10-1 savings. Still insisted on spending the savings on going south. I would go north before going south of Shepard. Gondek still wants it going to Eau Claire, I do not think that's a forgone conclusion.
 
There will be ZERO underground anything in the green line I am afraid. The UCP would not allow it to look any worse than it already does by admitting it may have been wrong, and we need some underground. Even though I know cut and cover is very different than tunneling. I am sure the mandate given to AECOM is to not even consider anything that goes 'underground'.
What an utterly stupid mandate if that is indeed the case.
 
Is elevated off the table? I know there's an issue of height over the CP tracks, but we managed it at Sunalta. If I recall, the building owners didn't like elevated, but that shouldn't be a show stopper.
Didn't seem to be an issue with Sunalta. If the province is dead-set on an elevated LRT, why not build an elevated section over the CP tracks with stations that also span the CP tracks and have access to both downtown and the beltine.

Pros:
-Serves the Beltline and Downtown
-Cheaper than tunneling
-Stations could tie into the +15 system
-Potential to tie into the west LRT in the future

Cons:
-Farther walk to Office buildings
-Requires the demolition or expensive re-working of two concrete parkades from the 1960's

Black circles are possible stations.
1729286616161.png
 
I've always thought the benefits of connecting the SE and N lines were overstated, while the desire to do so has forced some expensive alignment decisions.

Of course, terminating lines in the core poses it's own challenges, but here's a wacky idea that resolves that, too:

Screenshot 2024-10-19 at 9.11.27 AM.png


GL Station would be on 7th Ave in the block between WB 1st St station and EB 3rd St station. Which means jogging the existing tracks north by a few meters so you have 3 lines on that block, which could be pretty disruptive, but I'd think you could do the prep work overnight and knock out the final change over a long weekend.


Screenshot 2024-10-19 at 9.13.02 AM.png


10/10 for integration with red/blue lines. You could add a station on 9th in front of Gulf Canada Square. There are only two driveways on 9th that you'd have to manage

I also feel like a single track can be optimal for streetscape and overall function. I wonder if you could go back to the 11th and 12th couplet idea...could you do a single track on 12th without hindering access to utilities?

Only significant cost is a bit of work on the 1st and 5th underpasses. 5th looks like you could almost just slap it in there today, but it needs a bit more clearance. 1st would be a bigger project.

Then you'd do something similar for the north line, but probably on 6th (or you've got more space for a more typical terminus if you go UG from 4th-8th)
 

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