Green Line LRT | ?m | ?s | Calgary Transit

[lemongrab]

Maybe a dumb question, but should LRT really ever have to stop for more than a few seconds at any given light? Can signals not be better optimized? Why can't a certain proximity of train trigger 'don't walk' to flash for the necessary length of time so the light cycle can change the moment the train is ready to move? What am I missing here?

 

[thecivilengineer]

Maybe a dumb question, but should LRT really ever have to stop for more than a few seconds at any given light? Can signals not be better optimized? Why can't a certain proximity of train trigger 'don't walk' to flash for the necessary length of time so the light cycle can change the moment the train is ready to move? What am I missing here?

Also, i use the train daily in free zone, and i noticed most of the time there's technical problem along the downtown area which leads to delay for few more minutes.

 

[darwink]

Maybe a dumb question, but should LRT really ever have to stop for more than a few seconds at any given light? Can signals not be better optimized? Why can't a certain proximity of train trigger 'don't walk' to flash for the necessary length of time so the light cycle can change the moment the train is ready to move? What am I missing here?

The trains are too frequent, so it’s better to coordinate blocks together than inch from light to light.

 

[DougB]

I think part of it was that downtown Edmonton has much better geology for tunneling. In Calgary, downtown is essentially at the bottom of a riverbed.

I think Edmonton is worse. I watched the Government Center (then Grandin) to University segment as it was built. The section from Government Center to the north riverbank has flexible tunnel walls that allow some degree of movement due to the river bank being mostly sand. The section from the south riverbank to University required several dewatering wells that pumped non-stop for 4 years. That whole segment cost ~$146M, including 2 underground stations and a bridge across the wide N Sask valley. That was in 1992 dollars, but it demonstrates how construction costs have escalated far faster than inflation in general.

The History of the Funding of Edmonton's LRT: The 1990s

If Edmonton’s LRT is ever going to charge forward, it might be helpful to look back and see what has pushed it ahead in the past. Here’s the first in a series of po…

edmontonjournal.com

 

[InfrastructureEnthusiast]

am always surprised how the Canada Line never inspired more projects to copy it's value approach with respect to grade-separated, automated, but with tiny bare-bones stations, small trains and standardization of everything. It's competitively fast, efficient and functional.

Ditto. Vancouver has made some excellent choices for their rapid transit network and I really thought Calgary would follow the Canada line model for Green line.

Decade late and 10 billion short now though...

If nothing else, figured Edmonton's decision to build a crosstown streetcar would have had Calgary going in the exact opposite direction!

 

[Mountain Man]

Prove it, with verifiable analysis and an accurate cost estimate, that shows this extra cost is actually worth it. Saying sweeping statements like "downtown is too busy we must tunnel!" Without sound analysis, or "the train must go up Centre Street because that is where the people are" is the type of high level decision making on this project that has lead to the mess we are in, a lost decade and $1 billion spent with literally nothing to show for it except reduced budget for the rest of the transit network, and thus worse overall service.

Not meaning to call you out personally but I am just so fed up with the lack of critical thought that has gone into what was supposed to be the biggest project in this city's history. Instead, we have had emotional high level rhetoric based on "trends", and whenever someone tries to raise concerns about this approach they are insulted and accused of being partisan hacks.

Prove it's better to run at grade on a downtown street, especially in rush hour!

The benefits are obvious, especially when some fool drives into the train or you get someone with headphone in getting hit by the train and the whole system is backed up more than usual. The current 7ave setup does rail maintenance almost every long weekend, if the train was underground it would need less maintenance. I don't have the cost estimates / breakdowns so I guess I'm not thinking critically enough for you. Just seems to me that going the cheap way will only add to the mess that is Ctrains and traffic. But hey, no numbers so feel free to dismiss...

 

[InfrastructureEnthusiast]

If covid has changed transit patterns. What would be better?

Phase 1a. Build Seton to a underground station at the new arena while it’s under construction (ie cheaper) then some sort of temp connection on 4th SE to a new station inbetween city hall and Bridgeland?

Or build this stubway?

Phase 1b. I think Calgary should cut its downtown tunneling teeth on the much shallower and widely used Red Line 8th Ave tunnel which frees up capacity on 7th for the Green Line. Connect Blue Line to Airport (no system change, still high floor)

Phase 2a. Complete Underground section from new arena to 64th Avenue where the roads were planned for LRT, Create Calgary’s new urban densification area.

Phase 2b. Connect the airport leg of the Blue Line at 96th station and future high speed rail to the green line which is then built fully out north to Stoney.

For a quickish win? The SE route up to Inglewood with the 3 lane ROW for BRT would likely cover the quadrant for a while. With a fully separated ROW it might even be possible to run automated buses for increased frequency.

It could also be interesting to put center st on a road diet to evaluate the impacts of the proposed streetcar alignment. Or close it off to personal vehicles completely and force them over to Edmonton trail instead.

Doubt it would work well, or be well received, but it would prove a point!

 

[Calgcouver]

I honestly wish they just looked at doing elevated train through the Downtown, Beltline and Eau Claire. All that mattered is that it was grade separated and kept the noise down for existing and future residents.

Even stations that tie into the Plus-15 network make a lot of sense in the Calgary context. I think cost controlled versions of Expo Line Stations like Joyce-Collingwood or Main Street-Science World would be perfectly fine in this scenario. Maybe at that point we could've saved way more money on the downtown tunneling and got a way longer and more useful Green Line.

But everyone i talked to seemed to shit all over that idea based on aesthetics. Crossroads Market Station already has to be elevated and Sunalta station is perfectly fine.

You would just have to run it down 10th Ave in the Beltline instead of 11 Ave and utilize the parking lot at 236 10 Ave SW to make the turn over the parkade and CPR line. Knock out the Bankers Hall plus-15, integrate a station into the plus-15 and the Core, knock out the Intact insurance Plus-15, knock out the Stock Exchange Tower plus-15, integrate a Station in with the Livingston Place plus-15. elevated station at Eau Claire Market and the elevated design over the river remains as-is.

Anyways, this is what i always thought should've been considered and i'm not an expert in this by any means. Just figured with the cost savings and reduced risk of cost overruns by not having to tunnel in places known to have underground rivers and high water tables, they could've built a lot more Green Line in the first phase with this approach. This was the value engineering solution for today the way running 7th Ave at-grade would've been when the original LRT red and blue line was built.

Also this opinion doesn't matter at this point they just have to build the useless Phase 1 and hope to god they can secure more funding to keep extending it right after so it can get to service way more of the City.

 

[MichaelS]

So do you support the train running at grade in mixed traffic for the entire length of centre Street then? We will face the same issues, so is it worth the literal billions to avoid those issues for downtown? The ultimate Green line will still have to run in traffic, could face vehicle collisions, and can only run at a reduced speed on the constrained Centre Street corridor, so why is it critical to avoid those issues downtown?

Prove it's better to run at grade on a downtown street, especially in rush hour!

The benefits are obvious, especially when some fool drives into the train or you get someone with headphone in getting hit by the train and the whole system is backed up more than usual. The current 7ave setup does rail maintenance almost every long weekend, if the train was underground it would need less maintenance. I don't have the cost estimates / breakdowns so I guess I'm not thinking critically enough for you. Just seems to me that going the cheap way will only add to the mess that is Ctrains and traffic. But hey, no numbers so feel free to dismiss...

 

[InfrastructureEnthusiast]

I'm hoping the Grand Central the province is teasing caps the CP rail line east of 4th Street SE. Could make for a cool link between VP and EV.

If the idea is to have a combined station for commuter/regional rail and a HSR line, the HSR will almost certainly have to be elevated and there would be opportunities to bridge the gap between neighborhoods.

That said, the 4th and 6th street underpasses would likely do a better job of it. Two ramps vs many many stairs..

 

[Mountain Man]

So do you support the train running at grade in mixed traffic for the entire length of centre Street then? We will face the same issues, so is it worth the literal billions to avoid those issues for downtown? The ultimate Green line will still have to run in traffic, could face vehicle collisions, and can only run at a reduced speed on the constrained Centre Street corridor, so why is it critical to avoid those issues downtown?

Not a fan of the CTrain on the street anywhere, it should be grade separated as much as possible. Centre Street should ultimately run in a tunnel too, but that's too much to ask. Downtown is far busier than centre street, so the importance should be obvious. My biggest concern about centre street is actually whether the train will fit on the shorter blocks without blocking traffic.

Centre Street is a great location for a streetcar, not an LRT.

 

[accord1999]

Not a fan of the CTrain on the street anywhere, it should be grade separated as much as possible. Centre Street should ultimately run in a tunnel too, but that's too much to ask. Downtown is far busier than centre street, so the importance should be obvious. My biggest concern about centre street is actually whether the train will fit on the shorter blocks without blocking traffic.

Even with 2-car trains, the stations will be too long to not block some intersections. Previously when the Green Line was specified to use up to 3-car trains, left turns were only going to be allowed at 7, 9, 10 and 12 Ave N for 2020 version of Stage 1.

https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=131771

 

[lemongrab]

It's crazy hindsight and would require building in a completely different order, but the two legs that make the most sense for low-floor are north central and the west leg.

Imagine if the NLRT was built before (or contemporaneously) the west leg (gotta go north since there is nowhere sensible for a LF MSF in the west). Go under 7th Ave and the heavy tracks on 1st or 2nd St and then go south to 17th Ave, where it turns west and runs the whole way up to 69th (or more realistically just to Westbrook in stage 1).

So instead of going super high over the tracks and then the Westbrook tunnel you've just got the downtown tunnel. And not insisting on full grade separation would simplify stuff further west - the tracks could run on the south side of 17th to better connect with the Sunterra park&ride and then maybe you don't need a tunnel at 69th and go all the way to ~85th for the terminus.

A whole bunch of tradeoffs with this - particularly VLRT vs what we're used to. And I imagine blue-line west riders make good use all the different DT stations, so going N-S might be less effective; but you're now hitting the beltline, and the 26th/14th St stops would be better than their Bow Trail counterparts. And it opens up lots of options for a spur line to MRU, or for the SE line to take a different path into DT. And 17th has been torn up for the better part of the last decade anyways, so at least that part of the timeline wouldn't have been so different!

I know this really just saying they should have gone for a different kind of a mega-project 15 years ago, but I think this would have been a more uniform execution and better bang for buck compared to the classic LRT+subway+streetcar hybrid mess that we're grappling with today. Thanks for attending my rambling fantasy transit TED talk.

 

[Surrealplaces]

Just my two cents, but I think the Green line needs to be separated through downtown, whether elevated or underground. Technically I'm sure it can be done at grade, but already I don't like the delays we have on 7th ave with the traffic lights and trains waiting for another train ahead of them to leave the station, etc... Even if we cut back on the number of stations, it doesn't cutback on the number of trains and at peak times there are number of trains on 7th ave at any given time.
IMHO we are better to spend the money now to build the green line through downtown in the most efficient way of handling the traffic. Also not having it at grade ensure scalability in the future. Who knows how busy all three lines will be 30 years from now.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

Thinking past this... How is the purple line meant to integrate? Is it meant to join the Green Line at Crossroads? From day 1 I think the Purple Line ridership with be huge even just from where the BRT runs today.

Also, thinking way ahead... Once downtown (sharing the Green Line ROW from Crossroads to Grand Central), couldn't the Purple Line run along 9th Ave (surface) to 14th Street SW, turn south at 14th (thanks to a reconfigured 14th and 9th/Bow Interchange) under the CP tracks, go down 14th to River Park, through the park (underground, residents would lose their minds about losing the view of downtown), turn west at 50th Ave (surface) and run into MRU and eventually cross Glenmore to the Grey Eagle?

• 9th Ave is huge and a low-floor train on the southern-most lanes (plus a bike lane) would integrate well and wouldn't cause much delay for drivers going into the central business district.
• 14th Street is well suited to a low-floor train.
• Going underground at River Park is a must to not ruin a great dog park and the geology should be much easier than downtown.
• 50th Ave has Glenmore Athletic Park and is decently wide that a ROW on the southern-most lanes wouldn't change the community.
• From there it is a straight shot to MRU and a hop over Glenmore to get to the Grey Eagle.
  • Stops could be at: Grand Central, Arts Commons, Between 2nd and 1st Street SW(underpass), 6th and 5th Street SW(underpass), 9th and 8th Street SW(underpass), 11th Street SW (underpass), Between 14th and 12 Ave SW (cutting off 13 Ave, who cares), 19th and 17th Ave, South Calgary Park, Glenmore Athletic Park, Mount Royal Gate and Richard Road (MRU and Maintenance Facility), and Grey Eagle
  • 12 stops along some pretty busy corridors.