Calgary's Downtown Dilemma

[adamyyc]

It’s an every day occurrence now. I witness groups of people doing drugs in public every day. I witness individuals having mental crises every day. Last week there was a woman walking barefoot, down the street, clearly under the influence, sobbing as she walked. It was 7:30 AM. I asked if she needed some help because she was clearly in distress and she just started screaming at me. A couple weeks ago I witnessed a group of people smoking meth in the corner of the Core food court. Yesterday I witnessed another woman screaming through the +15. I went to Heritage Park and a man was picking through the garbage. My 5-year old made a comment about the man picking through the garbage and the man overheard and started screaming at my child. I had to step in and park staff had to call the police. Security guards are having to “police” people’s behaviours. This isn’t just a downtown problem any longer. This is city wide.

 

[Surrealplaces]

It does seem to be everywhere, or at least not only contained to downtown. I routinely see those same kind issues at North Hill and Brentwood, which isn't too surprising given the LRT access.

 

[Mountain Man]

Walking around the Chumir Centre yesterday it felt like I was on Hastings & Main, just junkies and zombies everywhere, all huddled in circles selling and doing drugs. People don't even try to hide it a little bit anymore. We need to figure this out ASAP or we are going to start having the insane problems Vancouver is having.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

We're already at Vancouver level. The laws are there, just need to be enforced. I'd say generally, people are tired of the soft approach.

 

[Mountain Man]

We have the open consumption problems, but not the random violence.

 

[CBBarnett]

Walking around the Chumir Centre yesterday it felt like I was on Hastings & Main, just junkies and zombies everywhere, all huddled in circles selling and doing drugs. People don't even try to hide it a little bit anymore. We need to figure this out ASAP or we are going to start having the insane problems Vancouver is having.

It's about 100x less people than Hastings and Main, but your point is still valid. Obviously not ideal to have so much anti-social stuff occurring in a specific area.

One of the weird parts about Chumir - and many of our health centres for that matter - they have closed doors and cut-off entrances in the building, I am assuming to control access better. Which makes sense kind of... but it's not a store, it's public health facility hwere public access should be pretty high on the list of things to maintain.

Chumir I pick on because they closed the West and South entrances, there's never been a north entrance. The result is a "no man's land" is forming on 3 edges of the hospital where the hospital doesn't care about the main sidewalk around it, everyone must use the parking lot facing entrance. No one will look after the space, because the party responsible (Chumir) doesn't want to. So it's a forgotten sidewalk that's allowed a regular cluster of anti-social stuff to occur.

Often areas start become a problem when the area is forgotten and has no other use or user passing through. It may be a minor thing, but Chumir is absolutely not helping.

 

[trtcttc]

We're already at Vancouver level. The laws are there, just need to be enforced. I'd say generally, people are tired of the soft approach.

Don't disagree the problem is bad, but it's still not at Vancouver levels. One difference is that Vancouver has specific areas that are really bad, whereas the issue here is more spread out which makes it more visible. They are building treatment centres, otherwise, I'm not sure what the enforcement should do. Throw them in jail and charge them with some drug trafficking crimes, they get released, with a court date in 6 months. They don't show up to court, get re-arrested, etc. They're not going to deny bail to these people which essentially means there is no punishment. Putting them in prison is just wasting more public resources.

I generally believe in free markets, but I think we do need some form of rent control and drug free shelter spaces to stem the tide of new people becoming homeless. They don't become a non-functioning person overnight, we need safe spaces for those that are simply unable to afford shelter, give them time to get back on their feet, so they don't spiral where they end up becoming a social burden forever.

 

[Surrealplaces]

I feel like there's a segment of the homeless population so far gone with their addiction that require some sort of radical solution, and it won't be a soft approach. It could be forced re-hab, which I don't believe to be the answer, but it's the only one we have at the moment, or at least the better of the options, other options being jail or to remain on the street on their own.
For others who can be helped, it'll come down to spending some money and getting them some housing and some more resources.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

I assume Chumir is closing. We'll see what happens then. @CBBarnett isn't wrong about the staff not caring about what happens on the sidewalk. Having sat in the waiting room at Chumir, they're content to try and maintain order on the inside of the building.

Putting them in prison is just wasting more public resources.

This is where my thinking has changed and come around to the idea of forced treatment. I actually think prison, ahead of a court date, and treatment, is a good use of public resources in this case. I'm not a lawyer/crown prosecutor but there is an argument that these people are highly likely to reoffend, not show up for their court date, etc. and should be held without bail.

 

[trtcttc]

It's about 100x less people than Hastings and Main, but your point is still valid. Obviously not ideal to have so much anti-social stuff occurring in a specific area.

One of the weird parts about Chumir - and many of our health centres for that matter - they have closed doors and cut-off entrances in the building, I am assuming to control access better. Which makes sense kind of... but it's not a store, it's public health facility hwere public access should be pretty high on the list of things to maintain.

Chumir I pick on because they closed the West and South entrances, there's never been a north entrance. The result is a "no man's land" is forming on 3 edges of the hospital where the hospital doesn't care about the main sidewalk around it, everyone must use the parking lot facing entrance. No one will look after the space, because the party responsible (Chumir) doesn't want to. So it's a forgotten sidewalk that's allowed a regular cluster of anti-social stuff to occur.

Often areas start become a problem when the area is forgotten and has no other use or user passing through. It may be a minor thing, but Chumir is absolutely not helping.

Chumir also has a responsibility for the safety of staff and other patients. Security guards in Canada are mostly a symbolic position, if they allowed open access from multiple entrances, that'd be a security nightmare. Assault on healthcare workers is a growing problem and I have no issues with Chumir putting that ahead of maintaining the sidewalks around the facility.

 

[Surrealplaces]

This is where my thinking has changed and come around to the idea of forced treatment. I actually think prison, ahead of a court date, and treatment, is a good use of public resources in this case. I'm not a lawyer/crown prosecutor but there is an argument that these people are highly likely to reoffend, not show up for their court date, etc. and should be held without bail.

That's where I'm at these days. Jail isn't the solution, but leaving them on the streets isn't a solution. Forced rehab is kind of a halfway solution that's probably the best we have until we can figured out a way to get people off their addictions.
I look at it this way, we commit people with serious mental issues to a hospital where they can be looked after. It's not ideal, but we as a society do it because we need to somehow look after people who can't look after themselves.
In theory, those in forced rehab who can be rehabilitated will be and will be free. In theory, those not far gone enough be put into forced rehab should be able to avoid it with help in other ways.

 

[trtcttc]

This is where my thinking has changed and come around to the idea of forced treatment. I actually think prison, ahead of a court date, and treatment, is a good use of public resources in this case. I'm not a lawyer/crown prosecutor but there is an argument that these people are highly likely to reoffend, not show up for their court date, etc. and should be held without bail.

I support forced treatment, but what is the wait for a spot? We can't reasonably hold someone without bail for multiple years for basic drug offences while waiting for treatment spaces. The population that is so far gone, will reduce gradually from treatment, their own drug use, and our weather. But we need a better strategy to stem the tide of new people joining that group. Chief among them is getting serious about building social housing with strong controls for drug abuse and other issues.

 

[Chinook Arch]

I’m in favor of forced treatment. I recognize it’s a form of prison, but it’s better than actual prison. It at least gives someone a chance to recover and they’re looked after. Also for the public it keeps them off the streets
Assuming it’s run like the jail system there shouldn’t be a wait time - you meet the criteria, in you go.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

Chief among them is getting serious about building social housing with strong controls for drug abuse and other issues.

Yes to this but I struggle to game out how this would work in reality. I do think you would have to ram it through (like the Cowboys Park-ing lot thing). The time for consensus building has passed, we have a wide-spread social disorder issue.

My whole overarching approach is trying to affect the demand, reducing existing users and stopping people from becoming new users. The province is building treatment centres, now sure when they'll be done. When they are done, how long is a wait going to be? Probably long. How long can you hold someone while they wait? I don't know, maybe there's some half measure they could do between full-on treatment and releasing someone who has a high probability of reoffending. The answer, as always, is spending money.

Hire more judges. Build more treatment spaces. Build/buy some short-term housing for someone who just needs a break (care-bnb?)

 

[kora]

There was an article in the Globe recently about the Pandora encampment in Victoria. A survey of addicts showed that on average, each person experienced 9 overdoses. The problem with fentanyl is that some overdoses cause brain damage. Treatment can't help these people and there is no good understanding of how many people are damaged beyond rehabilitation.