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Calgary's Downtown Dilemma

I mean, treatment can help some people, some are beyond rehabilitation. Going through the intake process they'll surely find that out. If you have brain damage to the point of not being rehabilitated, you'll be redirected.

Point is, you have to try and it is better than them laying down on the steps of a building on Stephen Ave.
 
Yes to this but I struggle to game out how this would work in reality. I do think you would have to ram it through (like the Cowboys Park-ing lot thing). The time for consensus building has passed, we have a wide-spread social disorder issue.

My whole overarching approach is trying to affect the demand, reducing existing users and stopping people from becoming new users. The province is building treatment centres, now sure when they'll be done. When they are done, how long is a wait going to be? Probably long. How long can you hold someone while they wait? I don't know, maybe there's some half measure they could do between full-on treatment and releasing someone who has a high probability of reoffending. The answer, as always, is spending money.

Hire more judges. Build more treatment spaces. Build/buy some short-term housing for someone who just needs a break (care-bnb?)
When you say re-offending, does that include simply using drugs? I agree for violent offences, they should be held without bail. If for simply using drugs, that's not possible unless we spend an ungodly amount of money. It's not just judges, you'd need more court rooms, prosecutors, support staff, prison space, operation cost for prisons. And the question comes where does this money come from? Where would you cut? Reality is most people would rather avoid downtown than divert money from Healthcare or education to fix it.
 
that's not possible unless we spend an ungodly amount of money.
I'm ready to do drastic things. There's nuance in what I'm saying but it is time to start spending more on this issue. Where does the money come from, we're overdue for a PST. It is just dumb that we don't have one. Trying to do high-tax things like public healthcare and education in a low tax environment is just poor fiscal management.
 
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When you say re-offending, does that include simply using drugs? I agree for violent offences, they should be held without bail. If for simply using drugs, that's not possible unless we spend an ungodly amount of money. It's not just judges, you'd need more court rooms, prosecutors, support staff, prison space, operation cost for prisons. And the question comes where does this money come from? Where would you cut? Reality is most people would rather avoid downtown than divert money from Healthcare or education to fix it.
The costs wouldn’t be cheap, but neither is our healthcare system, prison system, education, system, transit system, or any other public service that we have to fund.
I don’t know what it would cost to run some forced rehab facilities, but let’s suppose the cost is 400 million capital costs to build them and then 100 million a year to run them.
If you framed it to the taxpayers as all taxpayers would have to pay a one time cost of $100, and then $25 a year after that to run the facility, you wouldn’t have no problem funding it.
It doesn’t solve the problem of the people who are on the path towards severe addiction, but by clearing all of the people who are currently severely addicted, it allows for better focus on those who are at risk of serious addiction.
 
I agree we can "step things up" and should be devoting more resources to the myriad of contributing factors here - housing affordability, mental health support, poverty reduction initiatives, security and policing of drug dealers and the drug supply itself.

The problem as always is that the issue is complex and a real solution requires a bit of everything, and probably a lot more money and effort than we are used to spending on things, and therefore ideology and politics continue to get in the way.

Obviously, there's a role for the public to play, and public tax dollars to be contributed (as they already are) but right away you run into the first problem. Some typical perspectives out there of the voting public:
  • I don't live downtown or in Calgary, why should my tax dollars go for it.
  • Man, I want to help the poor, but we are struggling too and already pay enough taxes.
  • Governments waste too much money already, they should just reallocate what they already tax me to solve the issue.
  • People should be self-sufficient and tough it out themselves - hand-outs won't help!
  • More affordable housing will ruin my property values - plus I had to pay for my house and you want to give it away for free to drug addicts?
  • We should just lock people up - clean the streets and force treatment (but don't raise my taxes to pay for that of course.)
So before we can even test a solution - and anything we try will take a while to demonstrate if it is effective or not - we need to agree what the problem and goal is. We can't easily agree so I think a lot of people eventually get tired and reduce the complexity of this issue to one of the following:
  1. "Its not my problem - I don't live downtown"
  2. "I want to make the problem go away but also don't to spend more money on it" or
  3. "I want our society's entire culture to change so people don't act this way anymore, so we can be like [another country] where they [visibly] don't have this problem".
If only it were that easy!
 
This fall, make it an election issue. If you care about this, vote for a councillor that will care about this. In saying that, most things here, are Provincial issues...
 
The costs wouldn’t be cheap, but neither is our healthcare system, prison system, education, system, transit system, or any other public service that we have to fund.
I don’t know what it would cost to run some forced rehab facilities, but let’s suppose the cost is 400 million capital costs to build them and then 100 million a year to run them.
If you framed it to the taxpayers as all taxpayers would have to pay a one time cost of $100, and then $25 a year after that to run the facility, you wouldn’t have no problem funding it.
It doesn’t solve the problem of the people who are on the path towards severe addiction, but by clearing all of the people who are currently severely addicted, it allows for better focus on those who are at risk of serious addiction.
And if it is tied to solving the problem, I think people will pay for it. Too often these promises of higher taxes to "solve" these issues but the issue doesn't improve and the additional taxes collected simply become the new baseline. That's why when people say increase housing density will lower taxes, yet taxes keep going up above inflation. If someone raises taxes and says the problem will be solved in 5 years, if not, then taxes will be cut by the equivalent amount it was raised, people would go for it.
 
If someone raises taxes and says the problem will be solved in 5 years, if not, then taxes will be cut by the equivalent amount it was raised, people would go for it.
What if, a PST were tied specifically to this? I think if the NDP wanted to try a moon shot, they put a PST on the table and say it will, specifically, be spent on this.

Come out, be bold and promise action. To sweeten it you could promise, like the UCP did, a income tax reduction on the first tax bracket that would be most impacted by a PST. People need to get something for giving something. If you are specific about what they'll get for what they give, I think it helps your case. Not to mention, it changes how we're affected by equalization as taxation potential is a part of what "screws" us. Something, something, two birds one stone.

I mean heck, they're looking for a referendum question to counter the separatist question. Maybe, "Do you support lowering income taxes and increasing funding for public safety that is funded by a price on non-essential items?"

Haha took me a bit to craft the question... It isn't obvious what it is asking but I think even Albertan's vote yes in support of that question. Using terms like "lowering income taxes", "increasing funding for public safety", and "funded by a price on non-essential items"; you're using really soft words for what amounts to asking "do you support getting a bigger paycheque, feeling safer at the price of a PST?"
 
I think it would be interesting to have a study estimating the cost of to society (including social costs) of one homeless drug addict roaming around in the city.

Building dedicated facilities will probably not seem that expensive in comparison.
 
It's not the same thing exactly, but in a similar vein, the Bridgeland Continuing Health Care facility was estimated at around ~130M, and had 200 rooms. I'm guessing a facility for forced rehab would need at least rooms for 300 minimum, with one in Calgary and one in Edmonton.
I'm not concerned about cost, but wonder what the end game would be. I would expect some of the people put into forced rehab won't be able to be rehabilitated due to mental issues. What would the next step be? Some type of mental health facility? I mean I guess we already do that, but not in this large of a scale.
 
I think it would be interesting to have a study estimating the cost of to society (including social costs) of one homeless drug addict roaming around in the city.

Building dedicated facilities will probably not seem that expensive in comparison.
I don't really think that is true. They incur costs when they access the healthcare system, and maybe utilize some public safety services. Realistically, a 24/7 healthcare facility to hold these people would be incredibly expensive, and each individual will likely live longer. If it was so cheap to do, you wouldn't see cities like LA spend billions on the problem, without it getting much better.
 
I don't really think that is true. They incur costs when they access the healthcare system, and maybe utilize some public safety services. Realistically, a 24/7 healthcare facility to hold these people would be incredibly expensive, and each individual will likely live longer. If it was so cheap to do, you wouldn't see cities like LA spend billions on the problem, without it getting much better.
You dismissing the cost of people not wanting to be downtown (whether that's living, spending time after work, or coming downtown for a night out. Not to mention peace officers moving them along, police investigating and arresting users and dealers, dispatching fire crews for overdoses, the healthcare costs of keeping someone alive in hospital who has overdosed. The system is doing a lot anyways.

Efficiency of services by having that all under one roof is also a factor.
 
I don't really think that is true. They incur costs when they access the healthcare system, and maybe utilize some public safety services. Realistically, a 24/7 healthcare facility to hold these people would be incredibly expensive, and each individual will likely live longer. If it was so cheap to do, you wouldn't see cities like LA spend billions on the problem, without it getting much better.

That doesn't count all the theft, damage to public infrastructure, financing of public and private security services, losses in tax dollars due to businesses/residents leaving.

"A 2016 study found that 107 chronic offenders in the DTES incur public service costs of $247,000 per person per year."
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downt...tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Eastside)

And this study probably doesn't factor some of the elements i listed above.
 
You dismissing the cost of people not wanting to be downtown (whether that's living, spending time after work, or coming downtown for a night out. Not to mention peace officers moving them along, police investigating and arresting users and dealers, dispatching fire crews for overdoses, the healthcare costs of keeping someone alive in hospital who has overdosed. The system is doing a lot anyways.

Efficiency of services by having that all under one roof is also a factor.
But what's the cost of avoiding downtown? Are they simply spending money elsewhere? There's also an argument if people really are avoiding downtown. Beltline has had a huge increase in residents, Vancouver downtown real estate is incredibly expensive despite the drug problem. I'm not denying those costs exist, but if we spend 100 million building the facilities for these people, will a equal part of the budget be cut from the police? from ambulance services? Very unlikely for those cost savings to be realized.
That doesn't count all the theft, damage to public infrastructure, financing of public and private security services, losses in tax dollars due to businesses/residents leaving.

"A 2016 study found that 107 chronic offenders in the DTES incur public service costs of $247,000 per person per year."
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downt...tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Eastside)

And this study probably doesn't factor some of the elements i listed above.
I don't believe those savings can be realized. We are not going to reduce spending on those public services. If it really was the case we can save money while building these facilities, seems like we can do this without any increase in taxes. Which begs the question why not a single North American city has effectively saved money while resolving their homelessness or drug issues.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/sfu-study-downtown-eastside-1.3392975 This study suggests 26.5M over 5 years, for 300 of the "offenders" (their words), or 168k-247k per person. That's really not all that expensive. An expansive health facility probably has a higher level of operating costs alone.
 

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