Calgary Regional Rail Transit

[CalgaryTiger]

It's more like HSR is just a "might as well" if they're going to build a new alignment separate from CPKC anyways

I also wouldn't think of a separate corridor as needing to be one of HSR or the other, not HSR. It can be both direct and also stop at every stop along the way. In your own corridor you are your only capacity constraint. Obviously the line will need to be twinned at points to avoid colliding with oncoming trains.

Does it cost that much more to add a third track and a basic stop (not a grand central) in Cochrane, and Highway 40 and Canmore? We have to remember, we are not inventing this, other places have done this, and on much more difficult terrain.

And if you have a consistent technology across your regional and HSR you have all the benefits of using single technologies on trains from Calgary to Banff, Calgary to Edmonton, Calgary to Airdrie, Calgary to Okotoks/High River, etc.

 

[trtcttc]

It's more like HSR is just a "might as well" if they're going to build a new alignment separate from CPKC anyways

There needs to be more study, but HSR have stricter requirements for curves, grade changes, so it's not as simple as change the trains, the route may be very different. Not to mention the tighter tolerance for rail and higher maintenance requirements.

I also wouldn't think of a separate corridor as needing to be one of HSR or the other, not HSR. It can be both direct and also stop at every stop along the way. In your own corridor you are your only capacity constraint. Obviously the line will need to be twinned at points to avoid colliding with oncoming trains.

Does it cost that much more to add a third track and a basic stop (not a grand central) in Cochrane, and Highway 40 and Canmore? We have to remember, we are not inventing this, other places have done this, and on much more difficult terrain.

And if you have a consistent technology across your regional and HSR you have all the benefits of using single technologies on trains from Calgary to Banff, Calgary to Edmonton, Calgary to Airdrie, Calgary to Okotoks/High River, etc.

Their own corridor is pretty important for either. And adding stops are very expensive for HSR, it's why many cities that build it often have a different HSR stop than conventional rail stop, because it's very hard for HSR to curve into the city and exit back to its ROW.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

In my experience on HSR, conventional, HSR and even LRT are at the same stop and share platforms. No matter the train it''ll go slower through congested areas whether it is going in a straight line or not and whether it is stopping or not.

 

[trtcttc]

In my experience on HSR, conventional, HSR and even LRT are at the same stop and share platforms. No matter the train it''ll go slower through congested areas whether it is going in a straight line or not and whether it is stopping or not.

Really? Not trying to be sarcastic but genuinely curious where that is happening. When I've taken the HSR in Europe (Eurostar and Renfe), Asia (Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and China) it's always been dedicated tracks and platforms. Even when they're in the same station, it's usually like a separate wing or addition that's a short walk from the main station. Especially older stations where the HSR was added years later.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

Really? Not trying to be sarcastic but genuinely curious where that is happening. When I've taken the HSR in Europe (Eurostar and Renfe), Asia (Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and China) it's always been dedicated tracks and platforms. Even when they're in the same station, it's usually like a separate wing or addition that's a short walk from the main station. Especially older stations where the HSR was added years later.

Fair enough, in Italy I walked off a high-speed train and switched platforms on to a commuter style train. We were going from Florence to Cinque Terre. And just a few months ago in France I switched platforms in the same station to go from a High-Speed train to light rail in Nice. Granted in both cases the High-Speed train was not travelling quickly and was essentially a large and long commuter train.

 

[whatchyyc]

I think Brightline West is the closest analogue to what "HSR" would be like to Banff
A high speed trainset might also have better performance on grades

 

[CalgaryTiger]

The CABR project is sensing that their plan might not be the favoured approach... I don't think the Province has the stomach to do high-speed rail to Banff and they will likely do something like CABR. In the end it will be about the right-of-way. Is it easier and cheaper to twin the CPKC or run the line along the Trans Canada, we'll see.

For regional rail and the run to Edmonton I do think they try to use the same tech that way they can share their own corridor.

Calgary-to-Banff rail group says provincial interest in high speed not on track with their plan - LiveWire Calgary

A local group behind the push for Calgary-to-Banff rail service said that a recent provincial presentation has them concerned that the Alberta government might be examining a different option. Friends of CABR, a local non-profit that supports a proposed Calgary Airport to Banff Rail (CABR)...

livewirecalgary.com

 

[whatchyyc]

Suckers got too greedy stalling for years to beg for a $30m annual safety net from Joe Taxpayer, and now they're being left behind. Can't say I feel bad for them

 

[lemongrab]

The update also suggested the challenges of using existing rail include the terrain (tighter curves, steeper grades), which make it difficult for future high-speed rail. It also discusses going through communities and a potential limit on service and reliability.

I would think the CP tracks is by far the gentlest grade, but there are quite a few curves throughout - most curves look pretty gentle, but probably enough to limit speeds. I suspect the biggest issue is how frequently this ROW runs so close to water with significant grades on either side...quite a bit of earth moving to just twin the tracks without really straightening them much. Or maybe its as simple as not wanting to deal with litigation from 'stealing' the CABR concept.

HWY 1 makes a lot of sense to me. There's really just 2-3 spots to address: Scott Lake Hill and Jumping Pound Creek, and HWY 22 (which we know if due for a major interchange upgrade sooner than later, with probably a 3rd lane added from the City limits - maybe they smooth out that hill/curve on the east side?)

West of HWY 40 I don't think it makes a big difference which ROW they use, but TC1 is probably cheaper/easier.

The report showed, and Graham also underscored, that a high-speed rail line would need longer, straighter stretches of greenfield land to execute. That involves the expensive purchase of land, and it could limit Albertans’ access to the high-speed Calgary-to-Banff rail.

The greenfield talk is odd to me. The best two ROWs have already been identified and built. It's hard to see where anything else would be that is any better. But considering the UCP maybe it doesn't need to be better, but rather owned by the right people...

 

[badc0ffee]

HWY 1 makes a lot of sense to me. There's really just 2-3 spots to address: Scott Lake Hill and Jumping Pound Creek, and HWY 22 (which we know if due for a major interchange upgrade sooner than later, with probably a 3rd lane added from the City limits - maybe they smooth out that hill/curve on the east side?)

Isn't there also the issue of the area near Lac des Arcs, where there's not a lot of room to expand the highway? There's a mountain on one side and the lake on the other.

 

[trtcttc]

The CABR project is sensing that their plan might not be the favoured approach... I don't think the Province has the stomach to do high-speed rail to Banff and they will likely do something like CABR. In the end it will be about the right-of-way. Is it easier and cheaper to twin the CPKC or run the line along the Trans Canada, we'll see.

For regional rail and the run to Edmonton I do think they try to use the same tech that way they can share their own corridor.

Calgary-to-Banff rail group says provincial interest in high speed not on track with their plan - LiveWire Calgary

A local group behind the push for Calgary-to-Banff rail service said that a recent provincial presentation has them concerned that the Alberta government might be examining a different option. Friends of CABR, a local non-profit that supports a proposed Calgary Airport to Banff Rail (CABR)...

livewirecalgary.com

I hope they get a proposal out before this nationalist pride fades. Especially with the talk of Western alienation, and Quebec-Windsor high-speed rail going ahead, I'm sure the Feds would love a twin announcement of High Speed/High Frequency rail on the East and West.

 

[darwink]

Suckers got too greedy stalling for years to beg for a $30m annual safety net from Joe Taxpayer, and now they're being left behind. Can't say I feel bad for them

The province is the one that insisted the province own the thing, which drastically changed the economics of the project. I believe the pre-airport link, post adding things the province wanted on the CABR, the availability payment was to be $6 million a year, about the same as resurfacing 1 km of 1 lane of the highway.

 

[lemongrab]

Isn't there also the issue of the area near Lac des Arcs, where there's not a lot of room to expand the highway? There's a mountain on one side and the lake on the other.

The median looks pretty wide; around 18 meters most places I checked, though I'm sure there's a few spot where it narrows a bit. There's a bunch of places where eastbound lanes are higher than westbound so the median is on a bit of a grade, but nothing too crazy. Most of the overpass bridges even look like they'd be turnkey (pretty sure just the blue bridge at Jumpingpound would need to change)

Approaching Banff it definitely gets too narrow in places, but I think it's more likely to be on the southwest side of the highway and/or along the CP ROW for that stretch. And of course getting through/out of Calgary would be hard until about OBCR.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

The median looks pretty wide; around 18 meters most places I checked, though I'm sure there's a few spot where it narrows a bit. There's a bunch of places where eastbound lanes are higher than westbound so the median is on a bit of a grade, but nothing too crazy. Most of the overpass bridges even look like they'd be turnkey (pretty sure just the blue bridge at Jumpingpound would need to change)

Approaching Banff it definitely gets too narrow in places, but I think it's more likely to be on the southwest side of the highway and/or along the CP ROW for that stretch. And of course getting through/out of Calgary would be hard until about OBCR.

Where the grade is to steep or there isn't enough room, I think it could be elevated for those sections TCH seems to be the most realistic.

Going through Calgary, next to the CPKC line (I don't know how much they own?) you're fine up until Inglewood, through to where the line cross the TCH at Sarcee. Like I said, I don't know how much of the ROW CPKC owns. Downtown you would need to take over a rail or two, which would cost you but I also like the idea of CPKC not staging freight trains downtown.

 

[darwink]

Thinking about this more: the province owning the thing might be what gives the province cold feet about a near perpetual agreement for the CPR corridor.

Which it would be hilarious if the province put in a project requirement without understanding the consequences and has spent years trying to solve the consequences and instead ends up on a greenfield solution due to those decisions.