Urban Development and Proposals Discussion

[CalgaryTiger]

View attachment 628669
This is in the Route Ahead report; the downtown bus barns have about 15% of fleet capacity (courtesy cptdb.ca), with 10% of the capacity at Anderson colocated with the LRT barn, 35% of the capacity at Spring Gardens 10 min from downtown at 32nd Ave NE, and 40% of the capacity is the new Stoney garage in the far north. The three identified future sites are Highfield (bonus internet point to Mountain Man), as well as the deep south near 194 Ave and the west in Bearspaw.

I remember this being posted... should've known it was @ByeByeBaby. Now that plans for the bus barns are being talked about out loud

This is what was said in the LiveWire Article:

As part of the four-year strategic plan, CMLC would remain focused on further development of the lands around Victoria Park that make up the Rivers District and the Culture and Entertainment District, Thompson said.

The Victoria Park Transit Garage, also more colloquially known as the bus barns, is set for redevelopment as part of the strategic plan.

CMLC indicated that they would work with the City of Calgary to transfer land ownership of the 11-acre site to CMLC, in order to enable future development of the location.

A problem is none of the proposed new locations have any money. Maybe there's something coming? They say this year they get in under CMLC. "To facilitate our planning and relocation analysis." I forgot this was part of the Events Centre agreement, if I recall I think that gives CSEC an option on the site.

From the '25-'29 CMLC Strategic Plan

 

[Mountain Man]

(bonus internet point to Mountain Man)

I love internet points!!

 

[CBBarnett]

View attachment 628669
This is in the Route Ahead report; the downtown bus barns have about 15% of fleet capacity (courtesy cptdb.ca), with 10% of the capacity at Anderson colocated with the LRT barn, 35% of the capacity at Spring Gardens 10 min from downtown at 32nd Ave NE, and 40% of the capacity is the new Stoney garage in the far north. The three identified future sites are Highfield (bonus internet point to Mountain Man), as well as the deep south near 194 Ave and the west in Bearspaw.

What’s the theoretical best spot for a bus barn for transit? From a land use perspective it has many light-industrial type qualities - but is an existing industrial park actually the best place to put one?

I'd imagine one key objectives is a location that minimizes non-revenue time for as many routes as possible. Put another way, you want the garage as close to the start of as many routes as you can. With so many routes that might be difficult to meaningfully balance - but central, well connected locations are likely still your best sites. Availability of land is another one of course, these facilities are never small.

As an armchair transit advocate, I think the system could benefit from small LRT garages at or near the terminus of each line, like many metros have in Europe. That way they trains have zero non-revenue time, and each line has some ability to operate when an issue in the core prevents trains from crossing from the garage locations in the NE an S to the other lines, which happens a few times a year. For busses maybe a similar approach is useful - a few big garages near the terminus of suburban routes along the ring road, allowing as quick access to the start of routes as possible. Under that scenario, we'd still probably want a large garage centrally located as well.

 

[CBBarnett]

I remember this being posted... should've known it was @ByeByeBaby. Now that plans for the bus barns are being talked about out loud

This is what was said in the LiveWire Article:

As part of the four-year strategic plan, CMLC would remain focused on further development of the lands around Victoria Park that make up the Rivers District and the Culture and Entertainment District, Thompson said.

The Victoria Park Transit Garage, also more colloquially known as the bus barns, is set for redevelopment as part of the strategic plan.

CMLC indicated that they would work with the City of Calgary to transfer land ownership of the 11-acre site to CMLC, in order to enable future development of the location.

A problem is none of the proposed new locations have any money. Maybe there's something coming? They say this year they get in under CMLC. "To facilitate our planning and relocation analysis." I forgot this was part of the Events Centre agreement, if I recall I think that gives CSEC an option on the site.

From the '25-'29 CMLC Strategic Plan

View attachment 628699

After the Stampede /17th Avenue SW station upgrade I am suspicious of CLMC and redevelopment intentions that act against efficient and fast transit. There's lots of pros for extending 17th Ave for sure, but a big con was yet another at-grade crossing for the LRT, in a busy urban area. Inevitably it will degrade speed and reliability on the Red Line compared to the previous setup where there was no at-grade crossing. The benefits might outweigh this downside, but transit bore the entire trade-off here.

Victoria Park might be a good spot for redevelopment - but what does transit need? Are there better locations or are we once again asking the transit system to get incrementally less good or efficient, so that we can have some shiny new buildings?

I'd like to see the narrative be more transit-focused, like Transit saying "we don't really want the Victoria Park garage anymore because we have a plan that's even better for us and transit users" instead of CLMC declaring "we are looking to redevelop transit's asset because redevelopment is better than a bus barn here".

 

[Golfing guy]

What’s the theoretical best spot for a bus barn for transit? From a land use perspective it has many light-industrial type qualities - but is an existing industrial park actually the best place to put one?

I'd imagine one key objectives is a location that minimizes non-revenue time for as many routes as possible. Put another way, you want the garage as close to the start of as many routes as you can. With so many routes that might be difficult to meaningfully balance - but central, well connected locations are likely still your best sites. Availability of land is another one of course, these facilities are never small.

As an armchair transit advocate, I think the system could benefit from small LRT garages at or near the terminus of each line, like many metros have in Europe. That way they trains have zero non-revenue time, and each line has some ability to operate when an issue in the core prevents trains from crossing from the garage locations in the NE an S to the other lines, which happens a few times a year. For busses maybe a similar approach is useful - a few big garages near the terminus of suburban routes along the ring road, allowing as quick access to the start of routes as possible. Under that scenario, we'd still probably want a large garage centrally located as well.

Could they not integrate a new south Barn with the Green Line Depot in Shepard? Would be a cost saving’s I bet on the admin side. Also lots of land around that site.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

a few big garages near the terminus of suburban routes

Under that scenario, we'd still probably want a large garage centrally located as well.

I could be wrong but I think a good percentage of the city's buses run pretty centrally in the city. Any garage relocation should come with a system rethink like Route Ahead envisioned. Unfortunately there isn't the funding to do everything CT wants to do at once. I actually think they know what they have to do and they want to do it they just have one hand and leg tied together behind their back.

I'd like to see the narrative be more transit-focused

This needs to be a much bigger part of the decision making process. CT is the most efficient way to move the most amount of people, it needs to be seen that way.

 

[darwink]

My impression is that the decision tree went something like this:
Planner: This is a dead zone in a future neighbourhood in the potential highest value land near the river. If we are doing the neighbourhood not doing the bus barns would mean the plan is perpetually unfinished.
City/CMLC: Would redeveloping the barns pay for itself?
Planner: Crickets.
City/CMLC (to transit): Would you like a brand new bus barn to replace Victoria Park if it doesn't come out of your budget/future capital, but if you keep Victoria Park the renewal costs need to come out of your budget/future capital?
Calgary Transit: Yes.

 

[DougB]

My impression is that the decision tree went something like this:
Planner: This is a dead zone in a future neighbourhood in the potential highest value land near the river. If we are doing the neighbourhood not doing the bus barns would mean the plan is perpetually unfinished.
City/CMLC: Would redeveloping the barns pay for itself?
Planner: Crickets.
City/CMLC (to transit): Would you like a brand new bus barn to replace Victoria Park if it doesn't come out of your budget/future capital, but if you keep Victoria Park the renewal costs need to come out of your budget/future capital?
Calgary Transit: Yes.

The Victoria Park bus barns will need lifecycle replacement at some point. Plus, they are subject to flooding. Best relocation would likely be to Burnsland or Manchester

 

[CallmeCatbread]

There’s a massive amount of industrial land in the inner city. Surely we can find a spot for a bus barn that doesn’t eat up extremely valuable inner city riverfront real estate

 

[whatchyyc]

The city is eyeing a spot along the 50 avenue s extension, I think the motocross track is one potential location (but the people who use it aren't happy)

 

[darwink]

There’s a massive amount of industrial land in the inner city. Surely we can find a spot for a bus barn that doesn’t eat up extremely valuable inner city riverfront real estate

Yes. But building a bus barn is surprisingly expensive, and land in Calgary isn't worth that much, yet.

For the cost of moving the bus barn, likely could remediate entirely the West Village.

 

[Mountain Man]

The remediation in West Village has been pegged at hundreds of millions of dollars, would a bus barn really cost that much?

 

[darwink]

The remediation in West Village has been pegged at hundreds of millions of dollars, would a bus barn really cost that much?

The Stoney project was quoted at $174 million in 2016. And I suspect that is without land. The $174 is also approximate, as with a P3 project, they could be spending more, or spending less, to optimize lifecycle costs.