Calgary Transit

[CalgaryTiger]

Are people just assuming the fare entry pass doesn't exist?

What are you saying? Do you mean Fair Entry (Low Income Transit Pass)?

 

[trtcttc]

I think about who the Free Fare Zone serves and I assume most people who use it, already have some other kind of pass. Maybe some downtown workers take the train from one end of downtown to the other, but I don't think it is all that many people. A change in fare schemes could benefit the system and the riders.

Why not have a half price fare for rides within the greater downtown (Stampede to Kensington and Sunalta to Bridgeland or maybe even the Zoo). At $2 you're pretty competitive with cabs/Ubers and those Scooters in the warmer months. Working with the Stampede and CSEC you could also build the cost of a fair into their event. If it puts more money in the system and that money can be used to improve service.

Plus, the psychology of no free rides would also keep undesirables away from stations downtown (they'd go somewhere else unfortunately but still they wouldn't be getting a free ride on the train). It would eliminate an enforcement gray area.

I think all this consternation with fares from council misses the point. I'm almost certain whatever "revenue" they present to council for cancelling the fare free zone will not materialize. How many people will walk? Or simply not pay for a couple stops, and 99% of the time they won't be caught. What they should do is benchmark our monthly pass against single fare rides. We're subsidizing the cost for commuters at the expense of occasional users of the system. I've thought about taking the train to the Flames game, for 2 people it's $16, and there's parking at Platform for $4, even on the grounds it's $18 and when you get to a family, it doesn't make sense at all. Zone pricing would be ideal, but outside of that, monthly pass prices should go up, and that alone will drive much more revenue than these single fare hikes since most riders aren't paying single fare anyways.

Calgary: 126 / 4 = 31.5
Toronto: 156 / 3.3 = 47.3
Vancouver (1 zone): 111.6 / 2.7 = 41.3
Vancouver (2zone): 149.25 / 4 = 37.3

 

[ByeByeBaby]

Here's my takes on the Free Fare Zone:
How much revenue is lost to Calgary Transit?
Basically none; very few people are willing to pay 4 dollars to take a train for three blocks. On paper, there's a lot of revenue, but the value is only what you can get people to pay for it, which is very little.

What is the cost of the free fare zone to Calgary Transit?
Basically none; the trains are running and stopping anyways on a schedule controlled by the lights. Since the FFZ ends in the downtown, nobody is taking up a space that a paying customer otherwise could (since there's plenty of people at 7th and City Hall waiting to get on the train out of downtown). It's not like "free" as in beer, where providing it to more people means proportionally more cost. It's actually a very clever price discrimination scheme, providing extra service that costs nothing to people who wouldn't pay for it anyways. Win-win.

Can paid fares be enforced without converting sidewalks into paid platforms?
Nope; on-train enforcement is impossible when the train is stopping in 1 minute without a massive flood of peace officers; if a peace officer gets on the train, you can simply walk away from them, get off at the next stop in 30 seconds, and say that you threw away your ticket.

Can sidewalks be converted into paid platforms?
Nope; there is no space at City Hall in particular to handle both rush hour crowds and a separate sidewalk area, both wide enough to handle, say, a person using a wheelchair going one way and a person pushing a stroller going the other way. It also encourages people going around the barriers; it's a three foot climb onto the platform from the road.

Will removing the free fare zone reduce crime?
Not really; nobody who is going to stab someone on a train is going to balk at adding fare evasion to the charges. Also, essentially nobody stabs anybody on the trains; they're much safer than the roads. It will radically increase the petty crime of fare jumping, since it is impossible to enforce.

I meant "discomfort" when I said "crime"; it's actually that I don't like sitting near certain people on the train who creep me out. What about that?
Again, nope. The best thing for people who need help is to actually get them the help, which is beyond the scope of a transit fare scheme and is apparently not possible (even though it's the cheapest and most ethical thing to do). But in any case, if there are "uncomfortable" people on the train, the best remedy is to have more "normal" people on the train, acting as bystanders. The actual best thing to do to reduce the discomfort is to ensure a steady supply of all kinds of people; for instance, by making it free.

Are there any other benefits of the free fare zone?
It helps integrate our downtown that is long-but-thin; it encourages people in the Beltline and ends of the downtown to take transit and avoid driving in the most congested part of the city; it helps prop up the weak east and west ends of the office market. We should actually expand the FFZ by one stop in each direction (two to Erlton) on weekends, middays and evenings to provide more inner city economic activity.


I took the train with my wife to and from the Jube on Saturday (even though it was basically the same price and twice as long as driving). There were people who I wouldn't want to interact with in both directions, but the 10:30 PM trip home was a lot more intimidating since it was just us, one other person and whoever they thought they were talking to in that part of the car.

 

[Red Star]

Here's my takes on the Free Fare Zone:
How much revenue is lost to Calgary Transit?
Basically none; very few people are willing to pay 4 dollars to take a train for three blocks. On paper, there's a lot of revenue, but the value is only what you can get people to pay for it, which is very little.

What is the cost of the free fare zone to Calgary Transit?
Basically none; the trains are running and stopping anyways on a schedule controlled by the lights. Since the FFZ ends in the downtown, nobody is taking up a space that a paying customer otherwise could (since there's plenty of people at 7th and City Hall waiting to get on the train out of downtown). It's not like "free" as in beer, where providing it to more people means proportionally more cost. It's actually a very clever price discrimination scheme, providing extra service that costs nothing to people who wouldn't pay for it anyways. Win-win.

Can paid fares be enforced without converting sidewalks into paid platforms?
Nope; on-train enforcement is impossible when the train is stopping in 1 minute without a massive flood of peace officers; if a peace officer gets on the train, you can simply walk away from them, get off at the next stop in 30 seconds, and say that you threw away your ticket.

Can sidewalks be converted into paid platforms?
Nope; there is no space at City Hall in particular to handle both rush hour crowds and a separate sidewalk area, both wide enough to handle, say, a person using a wheelchair going one way and a person pushing a stroller going the other way. It also encourages people going around the barriers; it's a three foot climb onto the platform from the road.

Will removing the free fare zone reduce crime?
Not really; nobody who is going to stab someone on a train is going to balk at adding fare evasion to the charges. Also, essentially nobody stabs anybody on the trains; they're much safer than the roads. It will radically increase the petty crime of fare jumping, since it is impossible to enforce.

I meant "discomfort" when I said "crime"; it's actually that I don't like sitting near certain people on the train who creep me out. What about that?
Again, nope. The best thing for people who need help is to actually get them the help, which is beyond the scope of a transit fare scheme and is apparently not possible (even though it's the cheapest and most ethical thing to do). But in any case, if there are "uncomfortable" people on the train, the best remedy is to have more "normal" people on the train, acting as bystanders. The actual best thing to do to reduce the discomfort is to ensure a steady supply of all kinds of people; for instance, by making it free.

Are there any other benefits of the free fare zone?
It helps integrate our downtown that is long-but-thin; it encourages people in the Beltline and ends of the downtown to take transit and avoid driving in the most congested part of the city; it helps prop up the weak east and west ends of the office market. We should actually expand the FFZ by one stop in each direction (two to Erlton) on weekends, middays and evenings to provide more inner city economic activity.


I took the train with my wife to and from the Jube on Saturday (even though it was basically the same price and twice as long as driving). There were people who I wouldn't want to interact with in both directions, but the 10:30 PM trip home was a lot more intimidating since it was just us, one other person and whoever they thought they were talking to in that part of the car.

You sold me. I vote in favor you keeping the free fare zone.

@ByeByeBaby This is a hypothetical question. If the Subway was ever built under 8th Ave, would you be in favor of having the underground stations through downtown being part of the free fare zone? The Blue Line would continue to operate on 7th Ave.

I always envisioned that if an Subway were ever built under 8th Ave., the underground stations would only be open during rush hour, say 6-10am or 3pm-6pm. Then the Red Line would continue operating on 7th Ave. during off-peak hours.

 

[TooBizzy]

You sold me. I vote in favor you keeping the free fare zone.

@ByeByeBaby This is a hypothetical question. If the Subway was ever built under 8th Ave, would you be in favor of having the underground stations through downtown being part of the free fare zone? The Blue Line would continue to operate on 7th Ave.

I always envisioned that if an Subway were ever built under 8th Ave., the underground stations would only be open during rush hour, say 6-10am or 3pm-6pm. Then the Red Line would continue operating on 7th Ave. during off-peak hours.

That service plan sounds like kind of a nightmare to communicate, but maybe there's precedent of something like that working somewhere.

I'd envision a lot of "where is my Red Line train, it's supposed to be here" from people who aren't aware of the schedule that it changes tracks, and a lot "what do you mean, isn't there a Downtown Free Fare Zone?" as well. Keep it simple!

 

[boreal96]

We need "normal" people riding the free fair zone downtown, it is crucial to the safeness and the overall perception of the system, particularly in early mornings and evenings. There is a big risk of losing some of these riders if you end the free fare.

 

[ByeByeBaby]

You sold me. I vote in favor you keeping the free fare zone.

@ByeByeBaby This is a hypothetical question. If the Subway was ever built under 8th Ave, would you be in favor of having the underground stations through downtown being part of the free fare zone? The Blue Line would continue to operate on 7th Ave.

I always envisioned that if an Subway were ever built under 8th Ave., the underground stations would only be open during rush hour, say 6-10am or 3pm-6pm. Then the Red Line would continue operating on 7th Ave. during off-peak hours.

I definitely wouldn't. A big challenge in transit system operation is communication and clarity, especially with less frequent users. Clarity is important, and starts in system design. Having trains always go to the same place every time is much clearer than anything you could explain with signage or announcements (some of which will be ignored or won't be noticed). Can you imagine anything more frustrating than you leave your desk at 5:55, hit every ped signal the wrong way and get to the platform at 6:01 to miss the last train in the subway, then have to backtrack 5 minutes to 7th Ave and then wait for the train?

By the time a 8th Ave subway is built, even best case, the city will be over 2 million people, the blue line will be extended up to Cornerstone, and will be capable of producing sufficient demand to run with sub-10 minute headways in offpeaks anyways.