Scotia Place | 36.85m | 11s | CSEC | HOK

Do you support the proposal for the new arena?

  • Yes

    Votes: 103 67.3%
  • No

    Votes: 40 26.1%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 10 6.5%

  • Total voters
    153
One thing we have to keep in mind is that an NHL team move would require approval from the NHL owners. Approximately none would like to see a move to Hamilton or London, etc... They approved the move from Atlanta but would not likely a move from one Canadian city to another smaller market Canadian city, especially if the team is already viable in its location.
It seems a team move is only a bluff for Calgary - and it seems everyone knows this, including the city and the CSEC. Perhaps this is why CSEC was so insistent on working so hard to influence local decisions here over the past decade through their election plays, Olympic bid, 1 week engagement windows etc. They still obviously want a deal that extracts the maximum public subsidy, but their best move is neutering in an environment where team moves don't really make sense and everyone knows it. In other cities at other times the whole "we will move the team" threat was more of a real possibility.
 
Further to this, sports leagues love to play the game of having one or two more prospective cities markets than they have teams. Right now, the NHL is in a bad spot; not only have they recently expanded (Oilers ownership used Seattle to pressure for their arena), but the Arizona Coyotes are in the wind. Their current lease is ending and the city of Glendale won't renew it, since they haven't paid their taxes or rent on time. They were planning on building a new arena in Tempe, reports now suggest that this might not pass Tempe city council because no city in their right mind would make a $1.7B deal with a team who wasn't even paying their taxes to their current city the previous month. Even if they did manage to build an arena, the intervening years would require a home in Phoenix; the options include a baseball stadium, three venues of 5-7K (the largest of which is in Tuscon, two hours away) and the Arizona Veterans Memorial Coliseum, which seats under 14K, has no luxury boxes and was built in 1965. It might remind some people on here of other arenas:
veterans-memorial-coliseum-mercury.jpg



In other news, LiveWire has a City document showing the timeline of the deal with CSEC, including CSEC's architect submitting the DP plans including the sidewalks in August and the climate stuff in early October.
 

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I know someone who was one of the sub consultants on the role (not a major design one, but did analysis supporting the project). It did not sound like a very well managed project, with inconsistent information and demands between the multiple percieved "owners" (CSEC, CMLC/City, Stampede). Anectodal and 2nd hand, but take that for what it is worth.
 
Maybe I'm naïve, but perhaps a potential path forward is for the Flames to be part owners of the arena. The ownership could be structured similar to the ownership structure of American Family Field (i.e., Miller Park), where Southeast Wisconsin Professional Baseball Park District (representing local counties) and the Milwaukee Brewers are part owners, with the ownership percentages changing over time as the parties invest in the facility. I'm not sure if the Flames would even have an interest in part ownership, but it could allow the Flames to more reasonably accept taking on a higher proportion of the costs at prices escalate, and would ensure that the Flames continuously invest in upgrades to the building over the years (e.g., new scoreboards, etc.), as it would slightly increase their ownership in the building. Presumably, ownership in the building would also benefit the Flames' overall valuation. This could help de-risk future maintenance costs to the City (although maybe that would already largely covered in the operation agreement and would be covered by CSEC already).
 
CSEC suffers from thinking they're experts at everything. Building projects, public engagement, building support. They're bad at all of it, and yet haven't (obviously) made efforts to hire people to fix this.
☝️This right here, i've known clients/would-be developers that are just like this. Ownership groups that think they know everything and don't rely on or respect the expertise of there project managers and consultant team. Makes it too easy for them to make emotional business decisions that are drowning in the ownership group's personal opinions and politics (ie, throwing a shit fit over anything related to public realm/sidewalk improvements or climate resiliency).
 
Don Braid presents a stark picture of where things were with East Victoria Park and where things are going if the status quo is maintained. The Event Centre is needed to spur other development and fill those empty parking lots. Hotel developers were waiting. Condo developers were waiting. The BMO Centre on it's own, is at risk of not attracting the conventions and large scale events it is designed for. The area has to be a destination or it is doomed to remain in it's present state.
 
I feel like Braid, along with many others, seem to forget that there will still be an arena there. The saddledome is not going anywhere. His comments about the hotel not appearing via the RFP process seems to vindicate the side opposed to this deal. That RFP did not produce an interested party, long before the collapse of the arena deal was known. Wasn't this supposed to spur a whole bunch of new development? Yet, couldn't attract a single hotel? What factors have changed, not having this new arena but still having the saddledome? Was the planned FanAttic store really that big of a draw to overnight visitors? And the claim that the East Village CRL is already paying dividends is pretty optimistic, given the extremely slow pace of development (finally got a 6 storey DP in, after 6 years of no significant application, and no start on a development newer than a 2014 DP) and massive expenditures that went into that neighbourhood.
 
Developer incentives is what spurred development around professional sports facilities around North America. Most of it would not have developed strictly on the sports facility's draw which would make the hundreds of millions invested in such a facility not as sound.
 
Don Braid presents a stark picture of where things were with East Victoria Park and where things are going if the status quo is maintained. The Event Centre is needed to spur other development and fill those empty parking lots. Hotel developers were waiting. Condo developers were waiting. The BMO Centre on it's own, is at risk of not attracting the conventions and large scale events it is designed for. The area has to be a destination or it is doomed to remain in it's present state.
But like most pro-arena Herald columnists - it lacks evidence for the majority of the argument, relying on hearsay and conjecture. If the past half-dozen articles Braid, Corbella and other columnists weren't enough to raise suspicion, I would encourage folks to do a bit of research on the history of the Flames, Herald, the late Ken King, Braid, Corbella etc. Columnists aren't impartial by definition, but this isn't exactly a group without a few decades of conflicts of interests, nor have they a strong track record of a demonstrating critical analysis to maximize what's in the public's interest.

What sounds plausible in Braid's argument? - of course development would have led to more taxes. But if that's the goal, maybe we shouldn't have torn down all this development to make way for the Stampede and arenas the past 40 years. If we want to blame the city, perhaps we shouldn't have subsidized the Stampede for decades to buy up more and more land destabilizing the neighbourhood and leading to developer speculation that helped destroy the rest of it. All that publicly owned land could be disposed of and left to private interests to develop if higher returns if that's the goal!

As for a brand new, million square foot convention centre not being able to attract conventions/hotels and becoming a "white elephant" - well yes that is risk.

But not because an arena doesn't exist (one already does) - it's because new convention centre schemes have similarly weak business cases to arenas where it's unclear if they attract much private development or economic activity at all.

As @MichaelS put it - the arena and convention centres have existed for decades, the renewal of the facilities has been on the books for years. If they were so good at attracting development and hotels why hasn't one started yet?

TL,DR: Braid's just pumping the decades old arena/Flames argument for public subsidy with no substance.
 
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Sports makes a lot of money for the paper.

And without CSEC feeding them good arguments why would we expect the columnists to come up with them?

Like this is CSEC thinking it is winning. Getting the Herald to write this many pieces. I don't know what CSEC is thinking.
 

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