Scotia Place | 36.85m | 11s | CSEC | HOK

[Roaring Flames]

The public was largely skeptical of subsidizing a for-profit corporation by building them a new area. City council rammed the deal through without bothering to build a consensus. Instead they offered us the vague promise that the arena would be an architectural icon and act as a catalyst for the development of a new entertainment district in an otherwise unused part of downtown. Since then, every direction this project has taken has just reinforced the view that it serves the exclusive interests of CSEC. The arena design is only the latest (and most striking) piece of evidence in this regard. CSEC's disdain for the public is designed right into its three massive blank walls. The building is basically saying: "thanks for the money, suckers!"

And, I should add, this is not just a matter of subjective aesthetic opinion. The principles of good urban planning are well established through research. We have decades of evidence that for-profit mega projects like arenas, casinos, and convention centres do not act as catalysts for generalized neighbourhood development and do not provide the economic benefits they initially promise. This project was promoted as something that would be different. It's not.

Remember that the city was involved for most of the design period as one half of the investors and had the development manager on their side. That means that CMLC had agreed on this exterior design. It's not just CSEC making the bad decisions here.

 

[outoftheice]

In defence of the CMLC I believe it was reported that one of the big stumbling blocks was the desire by the Flames to have a parkade as part of the design and the CMLC pushing back on that. One of the previous posters on here mentioned that, in their view, the inclusion of the parkade forced the building to be pushed right up to the north property line to accommodate it. If that is indeed the case I could see the CMLC pushing to have the parkade removed so that the north side of the event centre bordering 12th could have an active frontage similar to what is proposed for the west side along Olympic Way. Pure speculation on my part but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if what got the CMLC kicked off the project was their insistence that an active frontage be built along 12th at the expense of the parkade and the Flames digging their heels in and saying the parkade stays no matter what the cost.

 

[Silence&Motion]

Remember that the city was involved for most of the design period as one half of the investors and had the development manager on their side. That means that CMLC had agreed on this exterior design. It's not just CSEC making the bad decisions here.

Absolutely the City is making bad decisions. The main one being to support this project in the first place. City Council has been acting more like CSEC's PR department than representatives of the public. Guess they have to earn those political donations for election season.

As @outoftheice mentioned, the fact that CMLC got kicked off the project is probably a good indication that they were not completely on board with this.

 

[Mountain Man]

Couldn't they bury the parkade?

 

[haltcatchfire]

I don't see the parkade as the driver of the position of the rink on the lot. Look at the lower level plan. Parkade or no parkade, the ramp and loading area for semi trucks are what's dictating the position.

 

[DougB]

In defence of the CMLC I believe it was reported that one of the big stumbling blocks was the desire by the Flames to have a parkade as part of the design and the CMLC pushing back on that. One of the previous posters on here mentioned that, in their view, the inclusion of the parkade forced the building to be pushed right up to the north property line to accommodate it. If that is indeed the case I could see the CMLC pushing to have the parkade removed so that the north side of the event centre bordering 12th could have an active frontage similar to what is proposed for the west side along Olympic Way. Pure speculation on my part but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if what got the CMLC kicked off the project was their insistence that an active frontage be built along 12th at the expense of the parkade and the Flames digging their heels in and saying the parkade stays no matter what the cost.

I still think CMLC's exit is a stealth mechanism to increase the City's contribution to the project. The City would have recovered a portion of its contribution via payments from CSEC to CMLC for project management services.

 

[ByeByeBaby]

I don't see the parkade as the driver of the position of the rink on the lot. Look at the lower level plan. Parkade or no parkade, the ramp and loading area for semi trucks are what's dictating the position.

Here's the mezzanine level; seating and public space is in green, back-of-house in blue and the parkade is in red. Does it still look like the parkade has no effect on the position?

A big chunk of that lower floor you posted is also parkade, by the way (for the millionaires on staff rather than the millionaires in the crowd). Remove that, and the loading area could easily be reconfigured.

The parkade is certainly the reason for big blank walls at and above grade, which is one of the big problems with the design.

 

[Roaring Flames]

Maybe build the parkade and player parking underground north of the arena. The parking could also serve the Green Line station and have direct access off the station to the arena via an underground tunnel that connects to the arena via the NW corner by the elevators and stairway

 

[gsunnyg]

The insanity of this whole thing is comical at this point. There is no way anyone, with even a bit of creativity, can wholeheartedly defend the ridiculous design for the North side. This isn't the Canadian Tire Center where people need to drive to the events no matter what. There are 2 LRT stations flanking the area. If Victoria Park, 20 years from now, had 0 parking, people would still show up to the games and events. They'd just take the LRT, taxi, uber, or whatever new tech we'll have. If CSEC had half a brain and wanted to make extra profits, they could have used the north side for hotel suites with ground-floor retail activation. This is a straight all-around L for Calgarians. Now I understand why CMLC was kicked out, so CSEC could protect their short-sighted self-interests and bone the rest of us all.

 

[haltcatchfire]

Here's the mezzanine level; seating and public space is in green, back-of-house in blue and the parkade is in red. Does it still look like the parkade has no effect on the position?
View attachment 344250

A big chunk of that lower floor you posted is also parkade, by the way (for the millionaires on staff rather than the millionaires in the crowd). Remove that, and the loading area could easily be reconfigured.

The parkade is certainly the reason for big blank walls at and above grade, which is one of the big problems with the design.

Well, they’re not going to remove underground player parking with direct access to the player facility. That’s a perk for player retention.

The parkade is a CSEC choice for staff and it takes up the remaining area of the upper levels, which will have close access to the management offices.

You’re not getting semi-trailers in and out of there any other way, parkade or no parkade. If they want significant acts to tour here they need that direct access at floor (ice) level.

 

[haltcatchfire]

The insanity of this whole thing is comical at this point. There is no way anyone, with even a bit of creativity, can wholeheartedly defend the ridiculous design for the North side. This isn't the Canadian Tire Center where people need to drive to the events no matter what. There are 2 LRT stations flanking the area. If Victoria Park, 20 years from now, had 0 parking, people would still show up to the games and events. They'd just take the LRT, taxi, uber, or whatever new tech we'll have. If CSEC had half a brain and wanted to make extra profits, they could have used the north side for hotel suites with ground-floor retail activation. This is a straight all-around L for Calgarians. Now I understand why CMLC was kicked out, so CSEC could protect their short-sighted self-interests and bone the rest of us all.

Is anyone defending the north side?

I still can’t wrap my head around this “design”. The northerly 3/4 of the west side, and the NW corner actually look decent. The metal panel siding band that curves is too predominant but perhaps it still gets dressed with signage and team banners to reduce the plainness and present the building’s purpose. This is the leading element of the Event Centre building’s architecture as the lower retail/restaurant reads as an adjacent purpose element and not inherent to the overall composition of the arena. Dressing up the architecture with marketing is lazy, but would be bare minimum fine. Or they won’t and the standout feature will be plainness.

A whole career as an architect and you get possibly one of the largest projects with opportunity to really put out your proudest work. Either CSEC forced their hand and significantly meddled in the architecture to dumb it down or the leading design architect should change careers.

The north side…so many other things they could have done instead. They’ve clearly run out of money and a slab of the cheapest cladding will have to do.

 

[Roaring Flames]

CMLC + CSEC = Designed by Committee

 

[The Familia]

Can I ask (duck lightning) how close you are to the project? Specifically, how do you know how much input CMLC had in the design? I just have a hard time believing CMLC had a huge hand in the current design based on all their past projects and accomplishments. Either they completely dropped the ball on this thing (in which case I’m glad they were removed), or more likely, the Flames bullied their way into getting everything they wanted with the eventual final blow being CMLC’s removal. The Flames just completed the final hurdle in successfully bending Calgary over with no lube.

Everyone here mocked the deal up in Edmonton and how Katz fleeced the city. Well….we look even more foolish because we vowed not to let what happened in Edmonton happen here….looks like Calgary is getting the raw end of this arena deal as well.

 

[Roaring Flames]

Can I ask (duck lightning) how close you are to the project? Specifically, how do you know how much input CMLC had in the design? I just have a hard time believing CMLC had a huge hand in the current design based on all their past projects and accomplishments. Either they completely dropped the ball on this thing (in which case I’m glad they were removed), or more likely, the Flames bullied their way into getting everything they wanted with the eventual final blow being CMLC’s removal. The Flames just completed the final hurdle in successfully bending Calgary over with no lube.

Everyone here mocked the deal up in Edmonton and how Katz fleeced the city. Well….we look even more foolish because we vowed not to let what happened in Edmonton happen here….looks like Calgary is getting the raw end of this arena deal as well.

Just like you I'm not involved. There's no way of knowing at this point how much input the CMLC actually had in the design, but judging by how much money the city is putting in and the fact that council specifically put CMLC as development manager so they could have their say in the design it shouldn't come as a surprise if they did have sizable input in some way. The exterior streetscape and retail is likely 100% CMLC

 

[darwink]

I think people are misplacing CMLC’s roles. There is CMLC as neighbourhood planner, CMLC as a potential deputent at CPC, CMLC as a rep of the city, and CMLC as a construction project manager.

Only the last one is over. The arena could have been knocking it out the park urban design wise and CSEC would have still asked it to be removed as construction project manager. Because if CSEC is 100% responsible for overruns, the construction manager better be 100% responsible to CSEC.