News   Apr 03, 2020
Pastel Morning
 5.7K     1 
News   Apr 02, 2020
A Message to Our Readers
 7.4K     3 
News   Apr 02, 2020
Soon to be Gone
 4.4K     0 

Calgary Regional Rail Transit

30 minute Hyperloop service being pushed with a proposal for a 6km test track on the east city TUC:

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local...oop-duorail-pushing-for-calgary-edmonton-link

Should they get to the point of actually building a test track, then I'll start considering the possibility of a Calgary-Edmonton line. At this point the 6 billion dollar price tag for a full line is a guess in terms of price. We could scrap the idea of a new stadium here and just take a ride to Edmonton for any concerts etc. Edmonton can scrap it's airport and just take a quick ride to YYC for flights here :)
 
Hyperloop/Transpod will work, but will it cost CAD 6 billion?

In layman's terms what is Hyperloop/Transpod? It is an object travelling at high speed in a vacuum. Why a vacuum? A vacuum has little to no air, air creates resistance (aerodynamic drag), if there is no air there is no drag and objects can travel at much higher speeds. Think of space travel.

However when it comes to passengers, we need air to breathe, so for passengers Hyperloop/Transpod becomes a pressurized vehicle travelling in a vacuum tube.

What is an object that operates with an interior pressure greater than the exterior? An aeroplane.

What is an object that operates with an interior pressure less than the exterior? A submarine.

What is the fastest form of propulsion? Electro-magnetic.

So an aeroplane propelled by mag-lev, inside a submarine.

As temperatures get colder, all metals and materials become more brittle and susceptible to fracturing. Over the past winter both CP and CN have been operating their trains at slow speeds to prevent breaking rails, causing the grain backlog. Ski hills will shutdown chair lifts below -20degC, to prevent cables snapping.

The temperature in the Prairies gets below -30degC in the winter. The frost level in Alberta is considered to be 3.0m, all water utilities are buried below 3m in the ground to prevent freezing.

To work effectively in Alberta, Hyperloop/Transpod would have to be underground. Also with a speed of 1000kph it would have to be dead straight, which can easily be achieved with tunnelling.

So will Transpod cost CAD6billion between Calgary and Edmonton?

A simple train tunnel costs CAD20million per km, Crossrail is costing more. A Transpod tunnel would also need to be sealed in order to maintain a vacuum, and this does not include the mag-lev propulsion technology or the construction of the terminals and pods.

For a quick relevant example, Tokyo to Nagoya mag-lev. The direct route is 286km with the majority in a tunnel, it is currently estimated at JPY5.1Trillion or CAD 60 Billion.

Hyperloop/Transpod is a fantastic idea and a great use of technology, but it will be a massive white elephant for Alberta. The population of Tokyo and Nagoya is 47 million, the best place for this technology in North America is in the North East Corridor between Washington DC and New York.
 
To me the issues that will determine the cost of eventual hyperloop installations are regulatory more than anything else - mostly in relation to evacuation standards from the tunnel. Too many evacuation points, places of refuge and the like and your costs explode. Otherwise can drive the cost way down, should require way smaller diameter tunnels.

Their cost study assumes that they have solved the thermal expansion issue. https://transpod.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/TransPod-infrastructure_EN_July-17-update2.pdf
 
Last edited:
I ran the math on the quoted cost per km in the above pdf $29 Million/km * 300km (City central to central operation) - 8.7 Billion. Yeah, the costs right now are very much not nailed down. Plus, this is just infrastructure cost, never mind land, more difficult terrain costs. The actual tube costs as far as I'm concerned are a guess at this point until such time as remaining engineering issues (such as handling 80 degree temperature swings) are actually built and tested for in this climate. I could see government kicking some amount into a test line, dependent on some more specific costs being nailed down a bit better on paper first. I'd also rather see something along the lines of an Airdrie-96th Ave test track, as the start of a real HSR in whatever form it might end up. Nail down the ROW, parking @ 96th and Airdrie. Need a shuttle to Airport as well. It's not the most practical transport, but I bet a lot of people would try it just for the novelty. However, this would take building 2 segments (one power point per 6km being the largest unit). Add a few wind turbines for good effect too!
 
Just looking at the piers, they have 38 costing about $79,000 each, these things are 9.5m high and are required to support 345 tons! The best statement in the Preliminary Basis of Design is, "Foundations are considered with good soil, with no piles."

Running my own numbers just for the piers, I calculate $291,000 per support, with 40 supports $11,640,000 per km.
Including all the other values un-adulterated, $39,816,000 per km, for construction only, which is on a par with high speed rail.

With an operating speed of 1,000kph I would support TransPod over High Speed Rail, a much more intriguing transportation system, however in the Alberta climate it should be below ground to eliminate the thermo-dynamic issue, as Hyper Loop has done with The Boring Company.
 
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/funds-secured-banff-passenger-rail-1.4744603

Couple say they've secured half of $600M needed to build Banff passenger train

banff-train-station-historic-pic.jpg
 
If that's true, there is a bunch of details to work out still - but exciting none the less :) I've ranted about this before, but the Banff-Calgary corridor is a really good potential site for rail transport (indeed, it was literally designed for it in the first place 100+ years ago).

Some obvious points that illustrate rail potential in the corridor.
  • Ever-increasing highway congestion and traffic accidents reducing driving competitiveness and pushing up demand for alternatives
  • Highway expansion costs can be deffered or avoided if truly accessible rail service is created. Highway expansion has additional barriers due to national park that make it more difficult than other highway projects
  • Reducing & avoiding GHG emissions by reducing vehicular trips aligns well with government and national park policies
  • Tourism increasing year-over-year, and is largely focused on 3 development-restricted, rail accessible clusters of relatively walkable density (Banff, Canmore, Lake Louise)
  • Many tourist come from Asia / Europe where train travel is a natural choice, helping with adoption (many take coaches currently)
  • Local vehicular capacity is maxed out; Banff can't fit more vehicles into the townsite on most busy summer days (Lake Louise too)
  • Passenger car expense of the gate fee inflates driving costs
  • Trip is only 100km, putting even a slow (e.g. 100km/h) train as a competitive on travel time

The case is there to be made, more so than most hypothetical wish-list rail projects out there (Calgary - Edmonton being another strong contender). Will be interesting to see whether the costs to implement come in below the benefits and make this a success. More importantly for the investors trying to do this, it will take a lot of challenging old-school, dogmatic highway-only transportation departments' thinking in Alberta and Canada to understand the value of what this is and make it possible. Alberta has long ago lost any institutional knowledge of long-distance public transport system design which is a huge risk of it being rolled out poorly, or being misunderstood and killed on the drawing board.
 
This is a pretty cool project, and hope it comes to fruition. I'd love to see something like this for many reasons, I just hope the government sees the value of this. Aside from the obvious benefits of tourism and day trip transport, it may also offer an opportunity to develop some areas along the corridor that would otherwise be 100% car dependant.
 
Hi,
Couple say they have raised half of the $600 Million etc. Find it Hard to Believe Really. C.P. Owns the Tracks. The Only Psgr Train that Runs is the Rocky Mountainer Out of Vancouver Twice a Week in Summer Because They PAY C.P, for use of the Tracks and They HAVE Federal Gvmnt Approval Plus VIA Rail Silent Approval. VIA Won't Run a Train Any More Between Winnipeg to Calgary via
Regina and onto Vancouver. They are Only Interested in the Quebec City to Windsor Corridor the Rest They Have to Ron on Gvmnt Orders as Such,. (That is Where the Liberal Votes Are).
C P wants Their Main Line for FREIGHT & FREIGHT ONLY. They Won't Tolerate Psgr Rail on or Along Their of Way. What C.P. Wants, They can Get From the Federal Gvmnt etc. I Learned Rail Dispatching from a "Qualified Rail Dispatcher" When Was in my 20s Years Ago so I Know How C P & C.N plus B C Rail. Ontario Northland, Algoma Central etc Operate Operations Wise. Kept ALL My Files, Railroad Time Tables, Train Orders, Photos - You Name It for Years B 4 I Found a Railroad Museum
Who Would Take It. It was the LARGEST Collection of Its Kind in Canada, Anyone Who wants to Know How Trains/Railroads Operate I Can Always Find Time to Give Discussions On Rail Operations = Let Me Know Any Time.

Tnx.,
Operater.
 
Last edited:
Oddball said:
Sorry I'm late to the party. I read a bit about this while I was away on vacation, but I wasn't posting. This is awesome news!
Click to expand...
Potentially pretty cool. I'm somewhat skeptical, but if levels of government can join in I could see it happening sometime.
 
This would be game changing, I would love to hop on a train and take the family to banff for the day or weekend. That drive, although beautiful, can get so busy it really takes the joy out of it not to mention the parking situation. Plus I imagine the service would run through Cochrane and Canmore as well which would make those communities more connected to Calgary. What a great corridor to have joined by rail. Fingers crossed it goes through.
 
I'd take this proposal very seriously.

The couple also own Norquay, https://www.rmoutlook.com/article/norquay-gondola-possible-link-in-transportation-hub-20180308

They are l0oking at running a Gondola from the townsite to the hill.

From the article above, "The municipalities of Canmore, Cochrane, Calgary, Banff and ID9, as well as Alberta Transportation, are currently reviewing a draft of the report of a feasibility study they commissioned on the return of passenger railway."

Waterous have money themselves, and the ability to raise more given the right conditions:
https://business.financialpost.com/...tor-adam-waterous-is-an-optimist-about-energy

The Waterous energy fund raised $1.4 billion recently:
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...und-at-hard-cap-of-1-4-billion-300674515.html

With their big lease of the land around the CPR station in Banff, and the station itself, they could probably build out a hotel and conference centre, with its approval greased with Parks Canada due to the resumption of rail service. This is what may come from the "proposed railway heritage district" imo.

They said to the Herald:
Banff couple reveals big plans for town's historic train station
Katz, Daniel. Calgary Herald; Calgary, Alta. [Calgary, Alta]27 Apr 2017: A.9.

A Banff couple has unveiled plans to turn the town's historic train station into a mass transit hub which will include the creation of a 900-stall, park-and-ride lot and a historic railway district at the northwestern edge of the town.

Jan and Adam Waterous, owners of Liricon Capital Ltd., the leaseholder for the Banff Train Station and surrounding rail lands, said their proposal stems from the desire to tackle transit and vehicle congestion issues in Banff National Park and make the town more pedestrian-friendly.

"Like the city that is trying to woo the NHL team and builds a fancy hockey arena before they get the team, Adam and I entered into a multi-decade lease agreement with CP Rail to prepare the Banff station and the surrounding grounds for the mass transit changes that we believe will be coming to our town," said Jan Waterous.

Banff is currently undertaking a study on the feasibility of mass rail transit between Banff and Calgary, with the findings expected in the fall. The intent of the heritage rail district is to serve as an arrival centre for those passengers.

The heritage district, located on the site of the station's current west parking lot, would celebrate the heyday of rail travel to Banff, incorporating relocated or rebuilt rail-themed heritage buildings and refurbishing rolling stock.

"We envision the restoration and repurposing of three heritage Banff buildings to help with additional passenger handling, capacity, and provide restaurants, travel and transportation services," said Jan Waterous, adding more details will be revealed in the coming months.
 
Last edited:
Wow...just got a whole lot more interesting. It felt a bit pipe dreamish earlier, but maybe not. There's certainly more involved in this proposal, than just simply rail transit to Banff. The cool thing about having a gondola from townsite to hill is you could hop off the train, and head right up to the slopes. easy peasy.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top