Green Line LRT | ?m | ?s | Calgary Transit

[TooBizzy]

Why are we entertaining this "above ground kills business" argument anyway... this is a complete distraction. Has anyone seen any studies on the topic? Are we just assuming based on vibes?

This argument feels so ridiculously forced, and I doubt anybody had any aesthetic preference one way or another until one was suggested to us through Xwitter approximately 29 hours ago.

Peter Oliver is a professional hater, it's basically all the guy does. It's what we all love him for, but that doesn't mean you have to drink the haterade too.

Underground alignment is simply not coming back, and a +15-integrated above-ground alignment is probably the coolest thing we could get out of what's remaining.

10 Ave already has a sort of grungy club and bar vibe going for it, I can't think of anything better to do than putting a fashionable lid on the street wall to amplify that even further.

 

[Dārayavauš]

I've been to Japan too, this will suck for our current built environment in that area. We don't have the population density and existing amenities to flourish with that hanging around. Investment will go to other areas of Beltline and the CBD.

It can easily be turned into an asset if they start building amenities. They won’t of course being Canada, they’d prefer parking lots and 4 lane streets for cars instead downtown.

 

[Dārayavauš]

Why are we entertaining this "above ground kills business" argument anyway... this is a complete distraction. Has anyone seen any studies on the topic? Are we just assuming based on vibes?

This argument feels so ridiculously forced, and I doubt anybody had any aesthetic preference one way or another until one was suggested to us through Xwitter approximately 29 hours ago.

Peter Oliver is a professional hater, it's basically all the guy does. It's what we all love him for, but that doesn't mean you have to drink the haterade too.

Underground alignment is simply not coming back, and a +15-integrated above-ground alignment is probably the coolest thing we could get out of what's remaining.

10 Ave already has a sort of grungy club and bar vibe going for it, I can't think of anything better to do than putting a fashionable lid on the street wall to amplify that even further.

It would be pretty awesome to have elevated NGL. It can add some vibrancy to the street level.

 

[Beltline_B]

Why are we entertaining this "above ground kills business" argument anyway... this is a complete distraction. Has anyone seen any studies on the topic? Are we just assuming based on vibes?

This argument feels so ridiculously forced, and I doubt anybody had any aesthetic preference one way or another until one was suggested to us through Xwitter approximately 29 hours ago.

Peter Oliver is a professional hater, it's basically all the guy does. It's what we all love him for, but that doesn't mean you have to drink the haterade too.

Underground alignment is simply not coming back, and a +15-integrated above-ground alignment is probably the coolest thing we could get out of what's remaining.

10 Ave already has a sort of grungy club and bar vibe going for it, I can't think of anything better to do than putting a fashionable lid on the street wall to amplify that even further.

I’m kind of thinking the same thing. What business would be getting killed? There’s almost nothing of interest along 2nd st except for the Stephen ave intersection and not much along the 10th ave section except for the intersection where Galleria is going.
The way 2nd street is designed there isn’t much potential for anything . If you’re going to run it elevated, those are the two best roads.

 

[outoftheice]

Pre-planning has definitely not taken place. AECOM was evaluating alignments and that's about it. If the City decides to move forward we probably have a minimum of 18 months of design and costing work before we know what this will look like and before the City can go to market again with a RFP. So probably 2-3 years before shovels go into the ground, despite what the UCP is promising. By then, chances are costs will have jumped and what we think we can build now for the budget won't be possible. I hope I'm wrong but that's how I see this going down.

 

[Nawads]

I'm assuming to try and save face, they'll start building from 4th street south in the spring of next year, while they work on detailed design for the downtown portion. But generally agree, sounds like the city is pretty annoyed given that what the province has announced has zero details other than a line on a map.

 

[haltcatchfire]

It would be pretty awesome to have elevated NGL. It can add some vibrancy to the street level.

How’s that feeling over in Sunalta on the same street?

 

[darwink]

If the City decides to move forward we probably have a minimum of 18 months of design and costing work before we know what this will look like and before the City can go to market again with a RFP.

This isn’t the case given the fancy delivery model for design and construction. No need to go back to market.

 

[CBBarnett]

A not-so-generous take on the lack of transparency from the Province here.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/devin-dreeshen-green-line-lrt-elevated-analysis-1.7410946

I really don’t see apart from “no tunnels” we have solved everything (anything?) here. The provinces moves here are once again, just really strange - too much smoke, not enough fire.

Even if this alignment survives the next week, there’s no way this is the end of it. Way too many details missing.

 

[lemongrab]

A not-so-generous take on the lack of transparency from the Province here.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/devin-dreeshen-green-line-lrt-elevated-analysis-1.7410946

Obligatory the UCP are monstrous idiots. But the city undercuts its claims of having done rigorous study and decision making in selecting the tunnel by now suggesting they have no idea how elevated will actually work. Did they ever give it a fair shake, or not? A while ago I dug into the '5 route options' presented in late 2015 - and it was a bit of amateur-hour shit show at that time (maps used in presentation to committee were different than the attachments distributed for the meeting and had some random changes; the overall presentation did not inspire a lot of confidence).

But in that initial process they at least sketched something out:

So how much did they flesh this option out when analyzing it versus the other 4 options (all DT tunnels)? One would hope they did in fact answer a lot of the questions raised in this article as the justifications for the tunnel. Was there ever a cost differential where these alleged challenges were the better choice? Did they ever consider dropping to +30 level, or was it always limited to this map above?

The steer report in 2020 zooms out to offer a bunch of big picture "options", but DT tunnel is assumed for all SE LRT options.


There are a few interesting nuggets in that cbc article:

and then along Second Street S.W. downtown at the level currently occupied by three Plus-15 overpasses, before terminating above the existing Red and Blue Lines on Seventh Avenue.

It seems unlikely it would get to +15 level so soon north of CPKC so this is probably just nonsense, but maybe it indicates they would target +30 level (just one +30 on all of 2nd St)

Among the considerations, Low added, is that 10th Avenue is the chief Beltline street for emergency vehicles travelling east and west. Those past studies of an on/above-street train also imagined turning the one-way traffic on 11th and 12th Avenues into two-way, he said.

I'm sure there are dozens of documents I've never seen, but I've never come across this 2-way conversion idea. There were lots of couplet ideas with one line on each of 11th and 12th or 10th and 11th; I do recall the idea that the trains would run opposite the one-way traffic, though.

 

[CBBarnett]

I mean, the province just found out for $2.5M what we knew back in 2015 - elevated is cheaper than tunnels.

Public feedback wanted underground. The city decided to weigh public feedback greater than costs, and that started this process evolving how it did - with plenty of blame and delays from both the province and the city interfering periodically ever since.

This new “take it or leave it” deal is trusting a lot on a catch-phrase that “elevated is cheaper” and so we don’t need to even worry about any details.

I’m not saying every step in this project has been well documented and the right calls been made, I just don’t see why we would have confidence this time either? Where’s the evidence?

 

[badc0ffee]

But in that initial process they at least sketched something out:

Kind of amazing how closely this matches what we're actually going to (probably? Probably!) build.

 

[FCC1982]

It can stay elevate the entire stretch. This entirely leaves options open. Even better, it might socialize the idea of elevated, meaning we get elevated until north of 16th Ave N, a superior outcome.

Totally agree - this would be a superior outcome for Centre Street. I would even push to stay elevated until north of McKnight.

 

[Calgcouver]

I honestly wish they just looked at doing elevated train through the Downtown, Beltline and Eau Claire. All that mattered is that it was grade separated and kept the noise down for existing and future residents.

Even stations that tie into the Plus-15 network make a lot of sense in the Calgary context. I think cost controlled versions of Expo Line Stations like Joyce-Collingwood or Main Street-Science World would be perfectly fine in this scenario. Maybe at that point we could've saved way more money on the downtown tunneling and got a way longer and more useful Green Line.

But everyone i talked to seemed to shit all over that idea based on aesthetics. Crossroads Market Station already has to be elevated and Sunalta station is perfectly fine.

You would just have to run it down 10th Ave in the Beltline instead of 11 Ave and utilize the parking lot at 236 10 Ave SW to make the turn over the parkade and CPR line. Knock out the Bankers Hall plus-15, integrate a station into the plus-15 and the Core, knock out the Intact insurance Plus-15, knock out the Stock Exchange Tower plus-15, integrate a Station in with the Livingston Place plus-15. elevated station at Eau Claire Market and the elevated design over the river remains as-is.

Anyways, this is what i always thought should've been considered and i'm not an expert in this by any means. Just figured with the cost savings and reduced risk of cost overruns by not having to tunnel in places known to have underground rivers and high water tables, they could've built a lot more Green Line in the first phase with this approach. This was the value engineering solution for today the way running 7th Ave at-grade would've been when the original LRT red and blue line was built.

Also this opinion doesn't matter at this point they just have to build the useless Phase 1 and hope to god they can secure more funding to keep extending it right after so it can get to service way more of the City.

LOL just saw the Alignment. I am clairvoyant, AECOM please send me a cheque.

I think they should just bulldoze/remove the conflicting parkade entrance from 9th for the City Centre Parkade, it already has access/egress from 10 Ave. Run train at the +15-level, no higher along 2nd Street SW. Just have the stations be like Joyce-Collingwood Station on the Expo line and do nice treatments to the public realms below that follow CPTED guidelines.

 

[lemongrab]

I think they should just bulldoze/remove the conflicting parkade entrance from 9th for the City Centre Parkade, it already has access/egress from 10 Ave. Run train at the +15-level, no higher along 2nd Street SW. Just have the stations be like Joyce-Collingwood Station on the Expo line and do nice treatments to the public realms below that follow CPTED guidelines.

This doesn't clear CPKC by enough and would mean going through like seven +15s. Easier to just go over (but ideally through the one +30)