Green Line LRT | ?m | ?s | Calgary Transit

[Calgcouver]

This doesn't clear CPKC by enough and would mean going through like seven +15s. Easier to just go over (but ideally through the one +30)

Sure, push to whatever the allowable min height is to clear based on CPKC guidelines, i'm sure they can't be much different than the current ramps and covers over the line for the City Centre Parkade now.

And I see wiping out seven +15s as a solution, not a problem. Reroute them at different heights if it's that important, if not this is a great way to push focus and investment back into the street-level public realm downtown. We should be focussing on providing cost effective stations OVER maintaining existing +15s, all day.

 

[Dārayavauš]

How’s that feeling over in Sunalta on the same street?

The same, it just needs more development. Elevated lines don’t kill vibrancy. You know what does?

Cars and traffic.

 

[ahuch]

Sure, push to whatever the allowable min height is to clear based on CPKC guidelines, i'm sure they can't be much different than the current ramps and covers over the line for the City Centre Parkade now.

And I see wiping out seven +15s as a solution, not a problem. Reroute them at different heights if it's that important, if not this is a great way to push focus and investment back into the street-level public realm downtown. We should be focussing on providing cost effective stations OVER maintaining existing +15s, all day.

And who pays for the cost of rebuilding seven +15s? Not to mention the practicality that you can't just shift them up a floor as they're designed around the buildings themselves, staircases may not fit, accessibility concerns, etc. I'm all for a street level public realm, but not at the expense of an arguably better human experience. The only way in my mind to have a better street level public realm is to increase density with housing to increase the viability of the commercial tenants, not by demolishing the +15 network.

 

[Calgcouver]

And who pays for the cost of rebuilding seven +15s? Not to mention the practicality that you can't just shift them up a floor as they're designed around the buildings themselves, staircases may not fit, accessibility concerns, etc. I'm all for a street level public realm, but not at the expense of an arguably better human experience. The only way in my mind to have a better street level public realm is to increase density with housing to increase the viability of the commercial tenants, not by demolishing the +15 network.

I'm aware this is unpopular, but I don't care at all about these +15s. I could give a shit if they get rebuilt, to me it's probably a better outcome if they do not. The 'arguably better human experience' is only for business-class people between the hours of 8am-4:30pm, hardly a way to build a neighbourhood that supports and attracts residential development.

The +15 network has created an eco-system for elevated indoor malls as the de-facto way to provide retail downtown. It should be at the street level, with the only exception being the Core and some existing rooftop businesses. Retail and Restaurants should be on the main floor to have business operating hours after 5pm. So no, I don't care at all about impacts to the +15 network. Maybe when businesses have to locate on the ground floor the people at the Downtown BIA will care more about the public realm and less about parking and driving through-put lanes. This network only exists so that we have justify a bad pedestrian realm at the ground-level and continued quasi-freeways for streets in the downtown. I think this should all change.

 

[Nimbus]

"with the only exception being the Core"

That's the thing though, the single busiest +15/30 in the entire system is the one from the Core across 2nd street. No way the mall owners go for that +15 coming down.

 

[ahuch]

I'm aware this is unpopular, but I don't care at all about these +15s. I could give a shit if they get rebuilt, to me it's probably a better outcome if they do not. The 'arguably better human experience' is only for business-class people between the hours of 8am-4:30pm, hardly a way to build a neighbourhood that supports and attracts residential development.

The +15 network has created an eco-system for elevated indoor malls as the de-facto way to provide retail downtown. It should be at the street level, with the only exception being the Core and some existing rooftop businesses. Retail and Restaurants should be on the main floor to have business operating hours after 5pm. So no, I don't care at all about impacts to the +15 network. Maybe when businesses have to locate on the ground floor the people at the Downtown BIA will care more about the public realm and less about parking and driving through-put lanes. This network only exists so that we have justify a bad pedestrian realm at the ground-level and continued quasi-freeways for streets in the downtown. I think this should all change.

What if we integrated green line into the +15 network? Isn't that more akin to what you see in places like Asia where you go seamlessly from transit to businesses? Then you get businesses operating past 5pm due to normalized foot traffic. Although admittedly, one station probably isn't enough to spearhead that alone.

 

[CBBarnett]

I think there are many ways to integrate a Plus-15 system into an elevated rail station and solve a whole bunch of circulation problems to get people from the street into and out of the system. Done right, this can resolve some of the current downsides to the Plus 15 sapping life from the street, while creating a truly integrated transit development.

Problem is - that's not what we have been given this week in the alignment announcement. Zero details are known about what can / can't / should / shouldn't happen with the Plus 15s and a myriad of other questions (circulations, access to stations from street etc.).

Goes back to my suspicion here. With so little details available, it does matter who makes the decisions and who pays for the unexpected stuff that is inevitable when removing/integrating/replacing Plus-15s with a elevated rail system. Technically anything is possible - but that assumption of "elevated is easier and cheaper" is doing a lot of the heavy lifting here that hasn't been done in any detail to know how this will all work out.

I am not opposed to elevated or where this project could be going, I am just suspicious and annoyed when one party in an agreement says "hey we solved everything you guys couldn't figure out. Check out this new map that has no real details, please sign on the dotted line here to agree. There's no time for questions and you have to sign now."

 

[CalgaryTiger]

From my reading city council has until tomorrow to give at least a preliminary vote on this. They got the detailed report last week in the afternoon so I'm sure they had a great weekend reading over a $2.5 Million PDF.

I think they integrate the +15 and maybe even the +30. Decending from the height they need to cross the freight rail likely means it only gets back to +15 level north of 7th anyhow. Even if the +15 is for business hours, getting people off the Green Line and into the +15 versus on to 7th Ave trains is a feature and not a bug. Redoing some +15s is just another one of those things that will get tacked onto this thing like all the other stuff like the parks and what not.

From @lemongrab looks like a 6% grade is probably the max they would want to do. You could get back to +15 level by 8th Ave but why if you take out a well used connection. Maybe you drop it after the 7th Ave Station (sounds like the plan is for the station to straddle 7th Ave)? But I'm not going to think about that, we're 10 years from a north extension becoming a reality.

This isn’t the case given the fancy delivery model for design and construction. No need to go back to market.

If what @darwink says is true, and I don't doubt it is true, and they don't need an RFP then that at least allows for some time saved.

Without the underground component near 100% risk transfer is possible to contract with the private sector delivery partner. The contingency can probably be reduced too. Enough to get it to McKenzie Towne? I wouldn’t count it out.

@darwink also mentioned the change in the risk profile, which probably isn't getting enough press. We have no idea what issues the tunnel would bring, as Edmonton has shown, you can always beef up some supports for elevated. I don't see it being so much cheaper they get to MacKenzie Towne, that money probably goes to the +15 or more extravagant 7th Ave Station. But really if they copy and pasted Sunalta with some Shenanigans flair, I'd be fine with that.

Other quick thoughts:
-The new FCC thing might benefit from being next to the city's Central LRT station that's two stops from Grand Central?
-What is 4th Street station, if it is to be part of Grand Central that should be on the province.

 

[zagox]

How’s that feeling over in Sunalta on the same street?

Sunalta development hasn't been supercharged by elevated c-train, but it hasn't been sterilized either. Many people think Mayor Bronconnier was self-dealing in pushing for an elevated c-train station next to land in which he had an ownership interest - according to Peter Oliver's logic, Bronconnier was actually a hero for selflessly hurting his properties' value?

Seems reasonable to assume that the 10th Ave in Beltline will continue to see some high rise development, just like 10th Ave in Sunalta - potentially more than without a new c-train station, but less than with an underground station. Maybe the design changes a bit to put gyms or parkade or mechanical on 2nd/3rd floor. So what.

 

[HudsonA08]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1868683108415054318

The Council Member speak out has started.

 

[Calgcouver]

What if we integrated green line into the +15 network? Isn't that more akin to what you see in places like Asia where you go seamlessly from transit to businesses? Then you get businesses operating past 5pm due to normalized foot traffic. Although admittedly, one station probably isn't enough to spearhead that alone.

I think integration of the +15 network is the ideal outcome and an achievable one that makes a lot of sense for our network. Just needs detailed design.

 

[darwink]

I think integration of the +15 network is the ideal outcome and an achievable one that makes a lot of sense for our network. Just needs detailed design.

And being above ground, there is far less of a path dependency problem going on. Lots of things can be done relatively on the fly versus working underground.

 

[Calgcouver]

And being above ground, there is far less of a path dependency problem going on. Lots of things can be done relatively on the fly versus working underground.

100%, there are many ways to integrate the +15 system with the eventual elevated stations.

 

[lemongrab]

I think there are many ways to integrate a Plus-15 system into an elevated rail station and solve a whole bunch of circulation problems to get people from the street into and out of the system. Done right, this can resolve some of the current downsides to the Plus 15 sapping life from the street, while creating a truly integrated transit development.

Problem is - that's not what we have been given this week in the alignment announcement. Zero details are known about what can / can't / should / shouldn't happen with the Plus 15s and a myriad of other questions (circulations, access to stations from street etc.).

Goes back to my suspicion here. With so little details available, it does matter who makes the decisions and who pays for the unexpected stuff that is inevitable when removing/integrating/replacing Plus-15s with a elevated rail system. Technically anything is possible - but that assumption of "elevated is easier and cheaper" is doing a lot of the heavy lifting here that hasn't been done in any detail to know how this will all work out.

I am not opposed to elevated or where this project could be going, I am just suspicious and annoyed when one party in an agreement says "hey we solved everything you guys couldn't figure out. Check out this new map that has no real details, please sign on the dotted line here to agree. There's no time for questions and you have to sign now."

This goes back to my concern that elevated was never given a serious second look, even in the midst of absurd truncation. I get that the city is in a weird place here on messaging, but it doesn't sit right for them to say "there are too many unanswered questions". If they didn't already have the answers halfway figured out that's a problem.

TBF I'm not sure what messaging I could realistically expect, but ideally something a bit more productive while still throwing all the blame on the UCP. At this point it almost seems like they won't want to mitigate the challenges out of spite. It'll be interesting to hear tomorrow.

From my reading city council has until tomorrow to give at least a preliminary vote on this. They got the detailed report last week in the afternoon so I'm sure they had a great weekend reading over a $2.5 Million PDF.

I think they integrate the +15 and maybe even the +30. Decending from the height they need to cross the freight rail likely means it only gets back to +15 level north of 7th anyhow. Even if the +15 is for business hours, getting people off the Green Line and into the +15 versus on to 7th Ave trains is a feature and not a bug. Redoing some +15s is just another one of those things that will get tacked onto this thing like all the other stuff like the parks and what not.

From @lemongrab looks like a 6% grade is probably the max they would want to do. You could get back to +15 level by 8th Ave but why if you take out a well used connection. Maybe you drop it after the 7th Ave Station (sounds like the plan is for the station to straddle 7th Ave)? But I'm not going to think about that, we're 10 years from a north extension becoming a reality.

I just don't see why you'd want to go any lower and mess with the +15s at all. You can only 'integrate' two of them - one on each end of the station. But presuming it straddles 7th, then the northern +15 is just a connection to a parkade and fairly generic 2nd level (https://www.intactplacecalgary.com/directory). There is presently very little space on the parkade side.

I'm not sure how you would really integrate into any other +15s?

 

[lemongrab]

Press conference from Gondek (and other councillors?) on Green Line:
https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=375756