Green Line LRT | ?m | ?s | Calgary Transit

[badc0ffee]

I remember they considered something like that, but we kept hearing that there absolutely had to be a station at 12 Ave. And a transition from there to the tracks impacted either redevelopment potential at the Vic Park garage, or impacted the existing red line tunnel, so we ended up with the plan we have now.

City Considers Two Additional Options for Beltline Green Line Segment | SkyriseCalgary

The City analyzes another two alignment options for the troublesome Beltline segment of the Green Line LRT.

calgary.skyrisecities.com

Setting aside the 12 Ave issue, and looking at your proposal, I think the 5 St SE station is actually in a good spot, not too far from the Stampede grounds or most of the EV. But Centre St near 10 Ave is very close to a number of existing stations on 7 Ave. So maybe you can just drop it entirely.

Also I don't know how you could be underground at 1 st SE, and at grade at Macleod, and not conflict with the underpasses on those streets.

Finally, it still keeps what I consider the worst part of the current proposal (cost aside) - it takes up two lanes of Centre Street just north of the bridge (a 4-lane bridge that is busy enough to have a reversible lane). I think street running only makes sense north of 16 Ave, but now I'm missing the point and adding more tunnel...

 

[accord1999]

Finally, it still keeps what I consider the worst part of the current proposal (cost aside) - it takes up two lanes of Centre Street just north of the bridge (a 4-lane bridge that is busy enough to have a reversible lane). I think street running only makes sense north of 16 Ave, but now I'm missing the point and adding more tunnel...

You're just adding back the tunnel that everybody understood was needed... Until they no longer had enough money for the other sections.

 

[lemongrab]

I'll play with a very quick drawing. Retain plan as current but turn north from Beltline up 1st St SW using existing underpass.

Expropriate the parking lot I'm cutting through (assessed value of just those surface lots is about $14M, so probably slightly cheaper than the current condo expropriation, and we aren't demolishing any homes). City already owns the strip south of the Chine Elderly Association, and I'd probably put a surface station there.

Then run up the Centre Street Bridge, saving many many millions.

 

[badc0ffee]

I think planners would have loved using the Centre St bridge, but IIRC it can't take the weight of trains, or can't support a track bed, or something. (Ironically it used to carry a streetcar over the Bow, which then went up 1 St NE).

 

[badc0ffee]

You're just adding back the tunnel that everybody understood was needed... Until they no longer had enough money for the other sections.

I suspect that once the phase from Eau Claire-Shepard is built, or at least once the costs are "finalized", we will see a proposal put forward with a tunnel on Centre St.

 

[FCC1982]

^Man I hope so.

 

[ssiguy2]

I'm not sure I posed this question earlier but whatever..............When building the downtown tunnel for the Green Line are they also going to build a LRT station underneath it for any future downtown East/West tunnel for the existing CTrains? Toronto did this years ago with the non-used Queen Street station under Yonge. Never used but portions will be for the new Ontario Line. Even if they don't build a whole station, even an empty shell would save huge amounts of time and money for an eventual downtown East/West tunnel.

 

[accord1999]

I think planners would have loved using the Centre St bridge, but IIRC it can't take the weight of trains, or can't support a track bed, or something. (Ironically it used to carry a streetcar over the Bow, which then went up 1 St NE).

In 2016 planners did evaluate an option using Centre Street but they ranked it poorly, well-behind the full tunnel Option D.

And when they reviewed alternatives for 2020, the NC LRT options use the Centre Street bridge but terminate at 6 St and can't connect with the SE LRT, so new information about the ground may no longer allow them to connect if Centre Street is used to enter downtown.

 

[jhappy77]

I remember they considered something like that, but we kept hearing that there absolutely had to be a station at 12 Ave. And a transition from there to the tracks impacted either redevelopment potential at the Vic Park garage, or impacted the existing red line tunnel, so we ended up with the plan we have now.

Also I don't know how you could be underground at 1 st SE, and at grade at Macleod, and not conflict with the underpasses on those streets.

Yeah, as nice as it would be for the green line to give better access to the Beltline, I really doubt the extra 100m of walking saved from having a station on 11 Ave versus 10 Ave is worth all that extra tunneling money. The cost/benefit ratio of extending further to reach underserved neighborhoods is probably much better.

The parking lot between the 2 Macleods has about 150m of space diagonally – this is around the same amount of space the red line takes to descend underneath Crowchild between University and Banff Trail. So it may actually be plausible for the train to descend underground then align itself underneath 10 Ave using that space.

I suspect that once the phase from Eau Claire-Shepard is built, or at least once the costs are "finalized", we will see a proposal put forward with a tunnel on Centre St.

I also feel it’s probably not worth tunneling under Center St. It just screams $$$, and it would only save 1 lane of traffic per direction, and only for like 800m - the Green Line will be running up the rest of Center St anyways. It would also make a 9th Ave Station potentially impossible (IIRC) and/or force the 16th Ave Station to be underground (more $$$). While it's not ideal I think we could cope with loosing that lane just fine, especially since we build transit is to get people out of cars in the first place, and any extra remaining traffic can use alternatives like Edmonton Trail which is 400m away.

That said, we should try to avoid an at-grade crossing with 16th Avenue though. The best strategy would be to dig a trench for 16th Ave to go underneath Centre St, similar to the downtown underpasses. It would be expensive, but not mind numbingly expensive, and it wouldn’t interfere with where you can put the Green Line stations. Then traffic on 16th can keep moving smoothly and the green line never gets stuck at that traffic light.

 

[badc0ffee]

it would only save 1 lane of traffic per direction, and only for like 800m - the Green Line will be running up the rest of Center St anyways

But that's where that traffic to/from the bridge is going - on to 16th Ave. So it's ok to have a narrower Centre St North of there. (It's already 1 lane+parking each way near 40 Ave N).

It would also make a 9th Ave Station potentially impossible (IIRC) and/or force the 16th Ave Station to be underground (more $$$)

I think 9th being impossible due to extreme depth was only true when tunneling under the Bow. But with a bridge that enters the escarpment, for example, the station could be shallow.

The best strategy would be to dig a trench for 16th Ave to go underneath Centre St, similar to the downtown underpasses

I think that doesn't work - it would prevent turns on to 16th from Centre and vice versa. It would also make that intersection even more horrible in a number of ways.

I don't think we can avoid the 16th station being underground (or elevated), unless it's not actually at 16th, but at like 18th or 14th.

 

[jhappy77]

I think that doesn't work - it would prevent turns on to 16th from Centre and vice versa. It would also make that intersection even more horrible in a number of ways.

I don't think we can avoid the 16th station being underground (or elevated), unless it's not actually at 16th, but at like 18th or 14th.

If we made 16th Avenue go under Center St like I proposed, you could arrange the turn movements as follows:

It would be a pseudo-interchange, working similarly to how WB Memorial turns onto SB Crowchild right now. You would need to sign it well (and expropriate some parking lots to make the yellow path work and be wide enough) but it would come with some significant advantages:

• No lights at 16th & Centre St. Period. Through traffic going N/S on Centre St, or E/W on 16th, never has to stop. This removes a major bottleneck in both roads. It might even improve the flow of traffic so much that removing that lane of traffic on Centre St for the train hurts way less.
• All previous left turns replaced with a series of rights. So left turning traffic never has to wait at a stop light. Even though a little extra driving is required, it still saves significant time versus waiting in an intersection for a couple minutes for the light cycle to go your way.
• Great for pedestrians and cyclists too (could have pathways along both roads, no waiting at lights, only traffic they need to contend with is right turning traffic which must yield to them)
• Green line doesn’t get delayed by any stop lights
• Green line station can be built above ground (significant savings) on either side of 16th.
• Left turning traffic never crosses the green line tracks

 

[darwink]

If we made 16th Avenue go under Center St like I proposed, you could arrange the turn movements as follows:

View attachment 499630

It would be a pseudo-interchange, working similarly to how WB Memorial turns onto SB Crowchild right now. You would need to sign it well (and expropriate some parking lots to make the yellow path work and be wide enough) but it would come with some significant advantages:

• No lights at 16th & Centre St. Period. Through traffic going N/S on Centre St, or E/W on 16th, never has to stop. This removes a major bottleneck in both roads. It might even improve the flow of traffic so much that removing that lane of traffic on Centre St for the train hurts way less.
• All previous left turns replaced with a series of rights. So left turning traffic never has to wait at a stop light. Even though a little extra driving is required, it still saves significant time versus waiting in an intersection for a couple minutes for the light cycle to go your way.
• Great for pedestrians and cyclists too (could have pathways along both roads, no waiting at lights, only traffic they need to contend with is right turning traffic which must yield to them)
• Green line doesn’t get delayed by any stop lights
• Green line station can be built above ground (significant savings) on either side of 16th.
• Left turning traffic never crosses the green line tracks

Way cheaper to just put the green line underground.

 

[jhappy77]

Way cheaper to just put the green line underground.

I really doubt that, what are you basing that on? An underpass like I proposed would probably clock in somewhere around $150M based on comparable projects in Calgary. The cost of tunneling (plus stations!) is far more than that.

 

[YYCguy]

If we made 16th Avenue go under Center St like I proposed, you could arrange the turn movements as follows:

View attachment 499630

It would be a pseudo-interchange, working similarly to how WB Memorial turns onto SB Crowchild right now. You would need to sign it well (and expropriate some parking lots to make the yellow path work and be wide enough) but it would come with some significant advantages:

• No lights at 16th & Centre St. Period. Through traffic going N/S on Centre St, or E/W on 16th, never has to stop. This removes a major bottleneck in both roads. It might even improve the flow of traffic so much that removing that lane of traffic on Centre St for the train hurts way less.
• All previous left turns replaced with a series of rights. So left turning traffic never has to wait at a stop light. Even though a little extra driving is required, it still saves significant time versus waiting in an intersection for a couple minutes for the light cycle to go your way.
• Great for pedestrians and cyclists too (could have pathways along both roads, no waiting at lights, only traffic they need to contend with is right turning traffic which must yield to them)
• Green line doesn’t get delayed by any stop lights
• Green line station can be built above ground (significant savings) on either side of 16th.
• Left turning traffic never crosses the green line tracks

I appreciate you thinking out of the box to find a way to keep traffic moving at this intersection, but I’m not sure those side streets adjacent to the intersection are built for the increased traffic proposed and I’m not sure people who live along those side streets would be too pleased with the increased traffic either!

 

[CBBarnett]

If we made 16th Avenue go under Center St like I proposed, you could arrange the turn movements as follows:

View attachment 499630

It would be a pseudo-interchange, working similarly to how WB Memorial turns onto SB Crowchild right now. You would need to sign it well (and expropriate some parking lots to make the yellow path work and be wide enough) but it would come with some significant advantages:

• No lights at 16th & Centre St. Period. Through traffic going N/S on Centre St, or E/W on 16th, never has to stop. This removes a major bottleneck in both roads. It might even improve the flow of traffic so much that removing that lane of traffic on Centre St for the train hurts way less.
• All previous left turns replaced with a series of rights. So left turning traffic never has to wait at a stop light. Even though a little extra driving is required, it still saves significant time versus waiting in an intersection for a couple minutes for the light cycle to go your way.
• Great for pedestrians and cyclists too (could have pathways along both roads, no waiting at lights, only traffic they need to contend with is right turning traffic which must yield to them)
• Green line doesn’t get delayed by any stop lights
• Green line station can be built above ground (significant savings) on either side of 16th.
• Left turning traffic never crosses the green line tracks

This is creative but it's the type of project that would undercut everything that the a major rapid transit project needs to do.

You don't "need" to preserve all these turn movements and create a weird in-neighbourhood cloverleaf interchange, that would require all sorts of strange land acquisitions and create traffic, speed and safety issues into the neighbourhood - the same place you are trying to increase land use intensity and walkability. You are working against yourself in the name of "balancing needs" when the output cannot be balanced because improving car capacity and transit/walking quality/land use intensity require the opposite things to be successful. It's a lot of extra effort and long-term downsides that counteract the primary investment of a rapid transit station about 5 minutes from the City Centre.

To adapt this idea for a future Green Line phase I would restrict and reduce the level of service for all turn movements at Centre and 16th Avenue. To compensate, create a cut-and-cover station at the intersection would provide several multiples of capacity increase in the N-S direction, meaning you can reduce Centre to a 2 lane road and still see the corridor's capacity grow several multiples. 16th is primarily E-W movements, so a reduce need for N-S cycles will allow for greater throughput here and removing the redundant turn infrastructure means less intersection complexity, accidents and congestion.