Green Line LRT | ?m | ?s | Calgary Transit

Go Elevated or try for Underground?

  • Work with the province and go with the Elevated option

    Votes: 52 75.4%
  • Try another approach and go for Underground option

    Votes: 14 20.3%
  • Cancel it altogether

    Votes: 1 1.4%
  • Go with a BRT solution

    Votes: 2 2.9%

  • Total voters
    69

Things are off the rails again with Edmonton’s Valley Line... There's currently no timeline for an opening for a line that was set to open in 2020. I lived there when they tried to open the line to NAIT, the train could only go 30km/h and would cause traffic to stop for up to 11 minutes at one crossing during rush hour because of train frequencies. I also remember a bridge over Groat Road being delayed because the steel warped. Something in the water up there...
 
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Things are off the rails again with Edmonton’s Valley Line... There's currently no timeline for an opening for a line that was set to open in 2020. I lived there when they tried to open the line to NAIT, the train could only go 30km/h and would cause traffic to stop for up to 11 minutes at one crossing during rush hour because of train frequencies. I also remember a bridge over Groat Road being delayed because the steel warped. Something in the water up there...
we're throwing stones from a glass house if we're chirping about LRT delays 😂

both cities need to get their act together and build way more light rail transit, way faster
 
I’m sure glad the west LRT built very standard columns, replicated from the Canada Line in Vancouver.

That being said. Building columns to spec would seem to be a core competency.

I’d guess trans-Ed will make very little on this project.

That will make two P3s on verge of failure due to contract problems, including Ottawa.

I have to wonder if it is more: we’re building more than we ever have before, and our systems for delivering good projects depended way more on experienced personnel than procedures which doesn’t scale well.
 
we're throwing stones from a glass house if we're chirping about LRT delays 😂

both cities need to get their act together and build way more light rail transit, way faster
Is Calgary much better, probably not but I don't think the city's list of delayed major projects is as long? I think they got ahead of themselves with Green Line. Were they really ever going to be able to build the whole line for what they said? I think it was people saying things when they had no idea what they were talking about. Its going to be a long time before we actually ride the Green Line but wouldn't we be waiting now anyways for the utility relocation? They've also cleaned up two old landfills while we've been waiting, so you could say construction has already started... ha (tongue firmly planted in cheek).

The 'something in the water' quip was more a dig at the Oilers, Bob Nicholson said it when talking about the Oilers a few years ago.

Reading the Edmonton thread on the project, sounds like concrete has been an issue on the project in a few different spots along the way. Concrete in the river, they redid a portion over the whitemud multiple times, and sections of the elevated track had to be redone.
the west LRT built very standard columns, replicated from the Canada Line in Vancouver.
I had no idea they did this, imitation seems to work well in infrastructure projects.
 
If the project was built with no consideration for impacts on traffic I think so.
Could you imagine that in this city... "Sorry drivers, traffic might be bad now, so just take the train we built."

Turning drivers into riders isn't what you want to do with your train system at all, why would you want to increase ridership by making driving more difficult? (Sarcasm)

The goal of city transportation seems to be giving you an option to take transit, a more economically and environmentally efficient way of getting somewhere, while not wanting to give you any reason to stop your less economically and environmentally efficient way of getting somewhere, all because they'd hate to slightly inconvenience you.
 
The reason we don't have much transit is because our transit is expensive.

But the reason that transit is expensive here is that it is planned with the fundamental assumption that drivers must not be inconvenienced. Tunnelling is expensive and wildly increases uncertainty and cost, but why are we tunnelling? The only things in the centre that the Green Line fundamentally can't cross at grade are the CP Rail and the river. Everything else is a choice. The Beltline portion of tunnelling was largely to avoid crossing Macleod at grade and inconveniencing drivers. Running downtown at grade could make east-west traffic a little slower, but not a lot. Instead of taking two lanes from 11th avenue and First street, we're spending a billion dollars. If the situation was reversed and the train was there already, would we spend a billion dollars to add two lanes to these roads? There should be the same answer to both questions.

North-south and east-west LRT lines cross at grade in downtown Portland (it's even one 1970s high-floor line and one current low-floor line like we have), so it should be possible to do that here as well, although our east-west corridor has higher train volumes, and eventually there will need to be a tunnel downtown somewhere.

There's a great saying in German, Organisation vor Elektronik vor Beton -- organization before electronics before concrete. That is, the first and cheapest changes involve optimizing your organization and operating; the second best is optimizing your signals and so on, and only once those have been exhausted should you build new infrastructure. We've taken the reverse tack here, very much at our cost.

It's not that the portion of the Green Line project that serves transit users is expensive and risky; it's the portion that serves drivers.
 
It's not that the portion of the Green Line project that serves transit users is expensive and risky; it's the portion that serves drivers.
I only say this half jokingly; can we go after car and oil companies the way we went after big tobacco? Isn't it well documented they coordinated efforts to make us need to drive?
 
Stoney Trail might/should be the last large investment in major road projects for the city (understanding the city only really paid for approach road improvements). At least in the context of making roads bigger and faster.

Crowchild between the river and 24th is being looked at but what if we kept it as is and only made safety and aesthetic improvements? NW drivers are well served by the ctrain, north central drivers can be well served by the Green line? We would save a lot of money on projects that would only make a small difference. Heck, don't bother doing those deerfoot improvements either, lets get radical! Haha

The city is doing a 'Social Return on Investment Analysis' for the Foothills athletic park + McMahon area, I'd like to see a social return on invest analysis done on road versus transit investment.
 
Stoney Trail might/should be the last massive large investment in major road projects for the city. At least in the context of making roads bigger and faster.

Crowchild between the river and 24th is being looked at but what if we kept it as is and only made safety and aesthetic improvements? NW drivers are well served by the ctrain, north central drivers can be well served by the Green line? We would save a lot of money on projects that would only make a small difference. Heck, don't bother doing those deerfoot improvements either, lets get radical! Haha

The city is doing a 'Social Return on Investment Analysis' for the Foothills athletic park + McMahon area, I'd like to see a social return on invest analysis done on road versus transit investment.
Exactly. Upgrading that stretch of Crowchild according to the current plans is $2 Billion+, which is more or less the same cost as the Green Line's north segment. In my opinion that's an easy choice to make.
The reason we don't have much transit is because our transit is expensive.

But the reason that transit is expensive here is that it is planned with the fundamental assumption that drivers must not be inconvenienced. Tunnelling is expensive and wildly increases uncertainty and cost, but why are we tunnelling? The only things in the centre that the Green Line fundamentally can't cross at grade are the CP Rail and the river. Everything else is a choice. The Beltline portion of tunnelling was largely to avoid crossing Macleod at grade and inconveniencing drivers. Running downtown at grade could make east-west traffic a little slower, but not a lot. Instead of taking two lanes from 11th avenue and First street, we're spending a billion dollars. If the situation was reversed and the train was there already, would we spend a billion dollars to add two lanes to these roads? There should be the same answer to both questions.

North-south and east-west LRT lines cross at grade in downtown Portland (it's even one 1970s high-floor line and one current low-floor line like we have), so it should be possible to do that here as well, although our east-west corridor has higher train volumes, and eventually there will need to be a tunnel downtown somewhere.

There's a great saying in German, Organisation vor Elektronik vor Beton -- organization before electronics before concrete. That is, the first and cheapest changes involve optimizing your organization and operating; the second best is optimizing your signals and so on, and only once those have been exhausted should you build new infrastructure. We've taken the reverse tack here, very much at our cost.

It's not that the portion of the Green Line project that serves transit users is expensive and risky; it's the portion that serves drivers.
I don't agree with this, because tunneling objectively helps transit too. As @darwink mentioned a huge portion of the efficiency/time savings that justify the green line would come from the tunnel underneath downtown.

After riding on European metros with their dedicated underground ROWs, our downtown LRT is pitifully slow in comparison. I trust the experts on the green line planning committee to make the right call on cost versus transportation benefit, especially in a city like us with high projected long term growth.

The bigger reason that our transit is expensive is because for most of our existence our city has been planned almost exclusively around cars. This means transit needs to go further to serve less people. And on top of that, making transit competitive with cars is an incredibly difficult logistical and geometric task that can be greatly harmed by just a few mistakes. Expanding car access is comparatively much easier.

If you look at our city building history it seems like we have basically never thought of transit as a mode which should be competitive with cars, rather, we've just thought of it as a tool to provide a social service and relieve congestion on the road network. The way we have built out reflects that, and that makes it difficult and expensive to reverse that trend.
 
our downtown LRT is pitifully slow in comparison
Isn't this mostly to do with the numerous north/south crossings and the fact the trains have to stop at traffic lights?

There should on really be 5 track crossings (Macleod North and South, 4th and 5th St., 8th St., and 11th St. (but only if the underpass is multi-mode).

Maybe that doesn't speed up the train that much and what do you do with pedestrians? But its something.
 
Stoney Trail might/should be the last large investment in major road projects for the city (understanding the city only really paid for approach road improvements). At least in the context of making roads bigger and faster.

Crowchild between the river and 24th is being looked at but what if we kept it as is and only made safety and aesthetic improvements? NW drivers are well served by the ctrain, north central drivers can be well served by the Green line? We would save a lot of money on projects that would only make a small difference. Heck, don't bother doing those deerfoot improvements either, lets get radical! Haha

The city is doing a 'Social Return on Investment Analysis' for the Foothills athletic park + McMahon area, I'd like to see a social return on invest analysis done on road versus transit investment.
"Should" and "is" are very different things unfortunately (well, unfortunate, depending on your point of view). Still many, many, many interchanges left to be built in Calgary according to the long range plans. Just go to the "Anticipated Projects" section of the regional transportation model website to get an idea of this:

As a taste, here is the map for the 2046-2076 horizon. Download it yourself if you want to see the details, because you really need to be able to zoom in to get a sense of it all. What isn't obvious on that map, is the amount of projects built in the earlier horizons.
1660254308120.png


Some of those are regional and as a result, the responsibility of the Province. But things like the grade separation of 14th Street SW, and the grade speration of Anderson Road (not the intersection between these two, but ever intersection along these two) would be entirely on the City.
 
Isn't this mostly to do with the numerous north/south crossings and the fact the trains have to stop at traffic lights?

There should on really be 5 track crossings (Macleod North and South, 4th and 5th St., 8th St., and 11th St. (but only if the underpass is multi-mode).

Maybe that doesn't speed up the train that much and what do you do with pedestrians? But its something.
Once you're underground for the CP tracks I don't think it's a huge deal to stay there for another 5 blocks each north and east. I've mentioned several times that I would imagine some substantial savings by using 1 St SW instead of 2nd (retrofitting 1st st underpass instead of digging an entirely new tunnel; easier alignment to cross Bow River with less impact to PIP).

I still don't really understand how running at-grade down Centre St isn't going to suck in the short-mid term, especially for the many, many bus routes there. Is the plan forced transfers to train? Can busses run on the train 'lanes'?
 
grade separation of 14th Street SW, and the grade separation of Anderson Road
Here's an idea, leave them as is. Both very well served by transit. They just redid 14th, so at the very least don't touch that. Anderson being two interchanges, I could live with that.

You know what I don't see on that map? Crowchild from the river to 24th! Muahaha, maybe they won't spend a billion on it?!
 

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