Shaganappi Point has had:
- The Giordano, 73 units
- A new building currently under construction, 60 units
- Crown Park, 156 units
- West 33, 149 units, under construction
- The Vibe, 102 units, under construction
Green Line LRT | ?m | ?s | Calgary Transit
- Thread starter Surrealplaces
- Start date
BKha
Active Member
My preference too.
accord1999
Active Member
It would be possible, one option that was looked at was elevated in DT to bridge and relatively shallow tunnel under Centre Street. It shouldn't be too expensive given the depth (estimated in 2015 at $800M vs $1.3B for full tunnel).
However, it's hard to imagine that anything will change the current orientation of the Green Line away from the SE direction. And in a new period of being more cost conscious, that they upgrade those parts that were already downgraded.
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accord1999
Active Member
Or maybe it's just transit and transportation enthusiasts discussing how to fix a project with a $13B appetite but currently only a $6B budget?
It also shouldn't just be the downtown and SE.
I find it quite funny that there can be years where there is not a single update (or even peep) about the NC LRT but once some public figure talks about something to bring rail to the North, these Green Line supporter get angry about how dare anybody tries to change the beautiful and important Centre Street Alignment (that probably hasn't seen any planning work or land acquisition in more than 5 years). Everyone has to respect the work done, except the Green Line which can change, downgrade or cut any part of the line it wants.
So Smith and Rempel's ideas may be not the "Best", but at least they're talking about the North.
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Tothewest
Active Member
For an entire LRT line, those are a drop in the bucket for ridership. Below is a true TOD...and the other is what we actually got at Shag Point. Replacing 2-4 story developments with 3-4 story developments scattered on Centre St is not going to increase ridership, you need open space that needed LRT to come to develop. Sunnyside isn't a comparable to Centre St, it just isnt. It's comparable for the Ramsay/Inglewood station...not Centre Street line
Thanks. This is what I was looking for.
Ramsayite
Active Member
Sure, your enthusiasm is noted and your post history speaks for itself.
Austerity for the sake of it in a province with a surplus just doesn't scream "enthusiastic" about transit to me, and throwing out a good plan for a haphazard one It's not a win for transit, especially the context of this project being transformed into a weird political play.
If one can fantasize about alternate alignments and future 7th ave tunnels then one can fantasize about a $13B green line that is done correctly, the claim that this needs "fixing" because we deserve a budget line instead is very obviously ideologically driven and valid to call out, IMO. And I did so as a general statement so you need not feel targeted unless you were planning to tell on yourself.
Tothewest
Active Member
*$45B debt, fixed it for you.
“Done correctly” is code word for how you personally want it done, no such thing actually exists, theres always options with pro’s/con’s. What the vast majority here are saying is, what makes somewhat fiscal sense and maximizes ridership. But you’ve already gone to the personal insults, so i digress
Ramsayite
Active Member
Wow, this whistle works great
Chinook Arch
Active Member
That option works for me.
Joborule
Active Member
Calgary has done a great job in the past in building it's LRT system to be as great as it is. Especially for a city at the population of it's time. But as the city continues to grow, and it's aspirations grow higher with each passing decade, so should the way we view the LRT, and rapid transit in general in this city. It's not the 90s anymore, and I think the general consensus is transit isn't exclusively about getting people from the suburbs to work downtown, but getting people moving around the city as a whole in general, and taking them to destinations where it's can be an attractive alternative to using a car.
When the first concept of NCLRT was imagined back when the LRT was in it's inception, it was following the philosophy of that day. To and from downtown, get to the suburbs, and capture major destinations along the way if you can. The NC Nose Creek line would do the same thing, since there isn't necessarily major destinations between downtown to Beddington Blvd. But that could be short sighted thinking, considering the city recognizes that they want Centre Street up to about 40 Ave to be a main street. If it was to amount to it's potential, it would become an area that could be trip generator, but the Nose Creek alignment would miss it completely. But even if that didn't pan out for whatever reason, there is still a large volume of customers that could be walking distance away from the train station that would be riders, as the current ridership for the buses that go down Centre Street show. I think it makes a lot of sense to put a LRT line on what is the biggest passenger volume corridor by bus in the city. I'm guessing it does better numbers than the West LRT as a whole. It's also why I want NCLRT first before SE, but I digress. But there's a reason it was recommended to switch to Centre Street a decade ago. It's where the people are.
If you bypass that high ridership and potential TOD corridor, then I feel it's adopting the philosophy of how to build transit from back in the 80s. I look at the NW LRT, and it does a great job at servicing the suburban communities, but it missed the mark when it came to servicing probably the most relevant area in all of the NW, the university HUB. It services the campus on the east end, as well as McMahon Stadium and the University Innovation Park (which isn't much presently), but the newly emerged crown jewel of the area in the University District doesn't get served. It also misses the 2nd biggest mall in the city in Market Mall, as well as the main hospital and medical school of the city in Foothills Hospital (as well Children's Hospital) are also absent of LRT service due to the LRT being too far away. If we were to build the NW LRT today, would we do it differently where those institutions, community, and mall would have stations before it heads NW on Crowchild Trail? It likely would be more expensive, but it would better serve the NW as a whole is the assumption right?
Centre Street doesn't offer those type of trip generators obviously, but again, it serves more than Nose Creek would.
For the SE part of the city, there's no way to get to down to the suburban cluster of that city without taking a long journey through the industrial region of the city to get down to there. For NC going up centre street, it's exclusively residents and main street corridors as soon as you cross the river. It would serve more purpose than just getting customers from the deep north to downtown, or transferring to a different line. It could spur development, business, and community building along the line. I would also assume that when it comes to feeder buses for these stations, the Centre Street alignment is more favorable once again over Nose Creek due to routes taking more of a straight-line/through path rather than a last mile circuitous end point route to reach the Nose Creek stations.
Now I said a lot there with a lot of assumptions of why I would think Centre Street is better. But ultimately I'm just guessing.
What we really need the city to show they are actually serious about the North Central by actually fulfilling a functional design study of NCLRT going up Centre Street, and getting a clearer gauge of what it would cost to build it, and see how it would compare to Nose Creek. Naturally I think Nose Creek would be cheaper, but if Centre Street is not that much more expensive, then there would likely be more value for that. But this is all moot if the city isn't going to invest into making this a reality in the near future.
If Calgary is going to be the city it wants to be, and be acknowledged in the top 4 Canadian city ranks of the Toronto's, Vancouver's, and Montreal's, then it can't be intimidated by complex projects that aren't cheap. Getting sticker shock from high price tags shouldn't restrain them from building an effect transit system that aligns with improving the density, affordability, and mobility of the city and it's citizens.
When the first concept of NCLRT was imagined back when the LRT was in it's inception, it was following the philosophy of that day. To and from downtown, get to the suburbs, and capture major destinations along the way if you can. The NC Nose Creek line would do the same thing, since there isn't necessarily major destinations between downtown to Beddington Blvd. But that could be short sighted thinking, considering the city recognizes that they want Centre Street up to about 40 Ave to be a main street. If it was to amount to it's potential, it would become an area that could be trip generator, but the Nose Creek alignment would miss it completely. But even if that didn't pan out for whatever reason, there is still a large volume of customers that could be walking distance away from the train station that would be riders, as the current ridership for the buses that go down Centre Street show. I think it makes a lot of sense to put a LRT line on what is the biggest passenger volume corridor by bus in the city. I'm guessing it does better numbers than the West LRT as a whole. It's also why I want NCLRT first before SE, but I digress. But there's a reason it was recommended to switch to Centre Street a decade ago. It's where the people are.
If you bypass that high ridership and potential TOD corridor, then I feel it's adopting the philosophy of how to build transit from back in the 80s. I look at the NW LRT, and it does a great job at servicing the suburban communities, but it missed the mark when it came to servicing probably the most relevant area in all of the NW, the university HUB. It services the campus on the east end, as well as McMahon Stadium and the University Innovation Park (which isn't much presently), but the newly emerged crown jewel of the area in the University District doesn't get served. It also misses the 2nd biggest mall in the city in Market Mall, as well as the main hospital and medical school of the city in Foothills Hospital (as well Children's Hospital) are also absent of LRT service due to the LRT being too far away. If we were to build the NW LRT today, would we do it differently where those institutions, community, and mall would have stations before it heads NW on Crowchild Trail? It likely would be more expensive, but it would better serve the NW as a whole is the assumption right?
Centre Street doesn't offer those type of trip generators obviously, but again, it serves more than Nose Creek would.
For the SE part of the city, there's no way to get to down to the suburban cluster of that city without taking a long journey through the industrial region of the city to get down to there. For NC going up centre street, it's exclusively residents and main street corridors as soon as you cross the river. It would serve more purpose than just getting customers from the deep north to downtown, or transferring to a different line. It could spur development, business, and community building along the line. I would also assume that when it comes to feeder buses for these stations, the Centre Street alignment is more favorable once again over Nose Creek due to routes taking more of a straight-line/through path rather than a last mile circuitous end point route to reach the Nose Creek stations.
Now I said a lot there with a lot of assumptions of why I would think Centre Street is better. But ultimately I'm just guessing.
What we really need the city to show they are actually serious about the North Central by actually fulfilling a functional design study of NCLRT going up Centre Street, and getting a clearer gauge of what it would cost to build it, and see how it would compare to Nose Creek. Naturally I think Nose Creek would be cheaper, but if Centre Street is not that much more expensive, then there would likely be more value for that. But this is all moot if the city isn't going to invest into making this a reality in the near future.
If Calgary is going to be the city it wants to be, and be acknowledged in the top 4 Canadian city ranks of the Toronto's, Vancouver's, and Montreal's, then it can't be intimidated by complex projects that aren't cheap. Getting sticker shock from high price tags shouldn't restrain them from building an effect transit system that aligns with improving the density, affordability, and mobility of the city and it's citizens.
InfrastructureEnthusiast
New Member
I think there is too much focus now on building out green line a singular mega project, which will of course end up being mega expensive. And if the costs get too high then so will the calls to scrap the whole thing.
For the near term, it seems reasonable to separate the NC segment if people are looking for a quick win, especially if SE is going to proceed first for whatever reasons.
If the YYC to Banff rail project is expected to proceed soon, is having a transit route for centre north of Beddington that transfers to or shares track with that train a bad interim step? Certainly enables faster commutes for those users if the stops on centre from Beddington to downtown are eliminated. That would also take some load off centre st BRT for that segment which would allow for more usage growth while the properties needed to build LRT in that segment are acquired.
Later on, the two centre street segments can be joined, while the nose creek corridor continues north to establish commuter service to Airdrie and other communities.
lemongrab
Active Member
lemongrab
Active Member
Interesting to look at these tables together. The 'black sheep' on the Blue Line west is still better than projections for 5 stops to the SE.
The second lowest BL West (Sirocco) beats out every station that is not DT or a terminus. Yikes!
InfrastructureEnthusiast
New Member
With regards to TOD development, I think it's important to remember that Calgary is still a relatively young city, with few geographical constraints compared to a place like Vancouver, where TOD developments took quite a while to really get going.
Eventually though even without geographical constraints, sprawl will be limited by what people consider to be an acceptable commute time. Until then, prospective homeowners when given a choice of a property that has dedicated land which will appreciate long term, or a multifamily unit which has maintenance fees that will increase long term, will mostly chose the former if prices are similar.
But if Calgary continues to grow as it is, the sprawl / commute time limit will be hit before the transit lines need full scale upgrades or replacement. IMO its best to plan these networks with the idea that the ROW is going to have to last forever, thus my focus on full grade separation, or at least the possibility to easily upgrade to that.