Green Line LRT | ?m | ?s | Calgary Transit

[Beltline_B]

So in otherwords, it would have the same characteristics as our current LRT lines, which lead to us having the most successful LRT system in North America (apart from maybe NYC), where operating it actually generated a profit, allowing us to offer even better bus service for the rest of the network? Yeah... good thing we decided not to replicate that model.....

A route through Nose Creek wouldn’t have the same characteristics as why the other lines. Not in any way really, the closest similarity would be some parts of the initial redline to the south where it goes through some industrial areas, but there are no similarities with the other lines.

 

[badc0ffee]

That's the section of tunnel they already cut in 2020. There's more details in my post at #2510.

Right, but they were trying to preserve the downtown tunnel above all else. Now that we preusmably have a better idea of the costs, and we know the downtown tunnel is not justifiable, can we also say the same about the north tunnel that was cut first? Like, maybe cutting the downtown tunnel saves $2 billion and adding the north tunnel only adds $1 billion.

 

[MichaelS]

A route through Nose Creek wouldn’t have the same characteristics as why the other lines. Not in any way really, the closest similarity would be some parts of the initial redline to the south where it goes through some industrial areas, but there are no similarities with the other lines.

A line that offers a fast, direct connection to downtown employment for people who live in the suburbs. Stations of the line are accessed typically with feeder route buses or by driving via a park and ride lot. Sounds a lot like our other lines to me. I don't think Crowchild Trail is a particularly walkable environment, nor is Memorial Drive / 36th Street.

 

[Tothewest]

Right, but they were trying to preserve the downtown tunnel above all else. Now that we preusmably have a better idea of the costs, and we know the downtown tunnel is not justifiable, can we also say the same about the north tunnel that was cut first? Like, maybe cutting the downtown tunnel saves $2 billion and adding the north tunnel only adds $1 billion.

Well the Beltline tunnel was a $400M hit. Keep in mind the vast land purchases required as well for stations/access/parking on Centre....this would likely be the most expensive leg of them all by a long shot, not to mention the road being closed for a long, long time. Better off looking at a BRT system on that road.

The most comparable example to develop the NC Green Line, would be the West Valley Line in Edmonton, running on an existing urban road (albeit not as busy or economically vibrant as Centre St), with mostly at grade and some elevated sections, no tunnels. $2.8B in 2020 dollars. We would lose atleast 2 if not 3 lanes of vehicle traffic. I'll let you determine how much those costs are now.

Hate on the Nose Creek option all you want, but it very well could be the only option.

 

[Chinook Arch]

So in other words, it would have the same characteristics as our current LRT lines, which lead to us having the most successful LRT system in North America (apart from maybe NYC), where operating it actually generated a profit, allowing us to offer even better bus service for the rest of the network? Yeah... good thing we decided not to replicate that model.....

And if generating TOD is one of the key criteria of this whole program, wouldn't it just be easier for the City to put a "for sale" sign up on 50% of our park and ride lots, and encourage TOD that way? We would capture thousands and thousands of units in potential TOD, without having to spend a dime on a new train.

I don’t see the the Nose Hill route as having the same characteristics as the other lines. All of the other lines, with the exception of the Red line’s Erlton to Chinook, pass through areas populated with businesses, people, schools, malls etc. As far as I can tell the Nose Creek route wouldn’t pass in close proximity to any of those things.
I agree fully about the city selling existing lots to turn into TODs, but we shouldn’t repeat mistakes of the past, which is another reason I don’t like the Nose Creek route.
TODs on a centre line would pop up easily without needing the city’s involvement because there won’t be any park and rides. Developers can start building as soon as the line is running or even before it’s finished.

 

[Tothewest]

TODs on a centre line would pop up easily without needing the city’s involvement because there won’t be any park and rides. Developers can start building as soon as the line is running or even before it’s finished.

TOD expectations become problematic when the area is already dense and developed, Centre St isnt Heritage, Westbrook, or Brentwood. By not having Park and Ride's, especially north of 16th ave, we're gonna spend a lot of money for not a lot of riders....below is West LRT in 2014 2 years after it opened...Shaganappi Point, yikes.

 

[darwink]

TOD expectations become problematic when the area is already dense and developed, Centre St isnt Heritage, Westbrook, or Brentwood. By not having Park and Ride's, especially north of 16th ave, we're gonna spend a lot of money for not a lot of riders....below is West LRT in 2014 2 years after it opened...Shaganappi Point, yikes.
View attachment 595801

where is the ridership by station from?

 

[Ramsayite]

UCP shills and apologists out in full force trying to turn a nuanced and complex inner city route into a completely different project.

Commuter rail is great, The province should build a commuter rail line up nose Creek valley. It could have two or three stops in the city and then continue to balzac and Airdrie

That should not be the green line.

 

[Beltline_B]

A line that offers a fast, direct connection to downtown employment for people who live in the suburbs. Stations of the line are accessed typically with feeder route buses or by driving via a park and ride lot. Sounds a lot like our other lines to me. I don't think Crowchild Trail is a particularly walkable environment, nor is Memorial Drive / 36th Street.

Crowchild itself doesn’t have a walkable atmosphere, but there is a lot within walking distances from the stations. A university, 3 shopping nodes and thousands of people, and they were already there before the line was built. There’s nothing along the Nose Creek route until you get out to Country hills.
Before University Station we also have SAIT, North Hill mall, and Sunnyside, and a stadium.
The Red Line south is within walking distance of two large malls and 3 other shopping nodes, and within walking distance of thousands of people and several office buildings.
The Blue line NE passes by the zoo, two good sized malls, 3 shopping nodes and some office buildings, and thousands of people who are within walking distance.
The Blue Line SW passes by a mall and a couple of shopping nodes, and thousands of people within walking distance.
The Green line north doesn’t hit any of those things until Deerfoot City, and even then it’s poor proximity. Then another long stretch through nothing until it reaches Country Hills. Almost everyone using the Nose Creek will have to drive to the station, and new feeder bus routes that don’t exist today will need to created.

 

[Beltline_B]

TOD expectations become problematic when the area is already dense and developed, Centre St isnt Heritage, Westbrook, or Brentwood. By not having Park and Ride's, especially north of 16th ave, we're gonna spend a lot of money for not a lot of riders....below is West LRT in 2014 2 years after it opened...Shaganappi Point, yikes.
View attachment 595801

That’s two years after it opened though. Not exactly enough time to create a TOD right? Since that time some new developments have sprung up around Shaganappi point, Same with Westbrook which will have higher numbers now.
Also there’s a golf course on the north side of Shag Point and thus no catchment, which illustrates exactly why you’d want a line to be built where there are people.

Regarding Centre street, it already has a high number of riders without the park and rides. As developments build near the centre street stations ridership will increase even more. There’s no downside to centre street other than cost.
Yeah it’ll cost more, but sometimes better costs more.

 

[badc0ffee]

There’s nothing along the Nose Creek route until you get out to Country hills.

To be clear, the route isn't 100% just following the existing tracks along Nose Creek. It diverges from Nose Creek south of 96 Ave and then continues up the preserved NCLRT right of way along Harvest Hills Blvd.

See page 27 of https://www.calgarytransit.com/cont...h_central_calgary_transit_corridor_review.pdf

 

[Tothewest]

where is the ridership by station from?

the west LRT "one year review"

That’s two years after it opened though. Not exactly enough time to create a TOD right? Since that time some new developments have sprung up around Shaganappi point, Same with Westbrook which will have higher numbers now.
Also there’s a golf course on the north side of Shag Point and thus no catchment, which illustrates exactly why you’d want a line to be built where there are people.

Regarding Centre street, it already has a high number of riders without the park and rides. As developments build near the centre street stations ridership will increase even more.there’s no downside to centre street other than cost.
Yeah it’ll cost more, but sometimes better costs more.

Nothing remotely close to a TOD has happened on the West LRT in 12 years, literally nothing. And that's with VAST land at Westbrook. Where are you building TOD's on Centre St? The land is already dense and developed, which is the opposite of what you start with for TOD's

 

[Beltline_B]

To be clear, the route isn't 100% just following the existing tracks along Nose Creek. It diverges from Nose Creek south of 96 Ave and then continues up the preserved NCLRT right of way along Harvest Hills Blvd.

See page 27 of https://www.calgarytransit.com/cont...h_central_calgary_transit_corridor_review.pdf

Sorry I meant 96th. I get it mixed up with Country Hills. Lol
Once it hits that area things pick up, but until then it’s a train that’s disconnected from any kind of urban fabric.

 

[darwink]

the west LRT "one year review"


Nothing remotely close to a TOD has happened on the West LRT in 12 years, literally nothing. And that's with VAST land at Westbrook. Where are you building TOD's on Centre St? The land is already dense and developed, which is the opposite of what you start with for TOD's

The land at Westbrook had land economics problems. After the city recent city purchase, it will likely now be subdivided and the city will try to sell it for a cost recovery price, and the lots will fail to sell because the price is too high.

 

[Beltline_B]

the west LRT "one year review"


Nothing remotely close to a TOD has happened on the West LRT in 12 years, literally nothing. And that's with VAST land at Westbrook. Where are you building TOD's on Centre St? The land is already dense and developed, which is the opposite of what you start with for TOD's

Development near the west LRT stations has been slow to get going but it is happening right now as we speak.

TODs along Centre street would be done the way they are supposed to be done. A collection of small to medium sized buildings scattered in proximity to the stations, like we’ve seen in Sunnyside.
You can have a cluster of towers near a station and that works too, but I vastly prefer the Sunnyside model.