Scotia Place | 36.85m | 11s | CSEC | HOK

Do you support the proposal for the new arena?

  • Yes

    Votes: 115 68.9%
  • No

    Votes: 42 25.1%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 10 6.0%

  • Total voters
    167
There's a ton of history here that predates internet development forums.

The Stampede v. Victoria Park redevelopment was a major (by local civic standards) issue for much of the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s - regular articles in the Herald for years and years about the ebbs and flows of debate. It was the rezoning for housing debate of its time, or the Glenmore Landing saga, but went on for decades.

At issue was two broad trends.

First, was the relative decline and stagnation of the inner city. Largely it was stagnant or shirking in population and lack of re-investment was becoming a big issue in many areas. Victoria Park was declining and becoming shabby, poorer and an increasingly forgotten corner of the suburb-obsessed city.

Second, while the inner city stagnated the rapid suburban growth and downtown corporate boosterism became in vogue. This began to displace smaller, more local forms of economic advocacy, resulting in broad reordering of city land uses, infrastructure, politics and development culture. This is where the attitude was born that downtown is a place only for offices, a place for commuters, a place for others to visit usually by car (but not necessarily live) came from.

The Stampede and Olympics rode on this big economic/political wave of suburbanization and downtown reorganization. With endless growth and big city-boosting schemes in vogue, the need for more exhibition space was strong. The Stampede slowly and incrementally started to eat into Victoria Park, replacing housing with more event infrastructure and parking. Who would miss this dilapidated, run down part of Calgary anyways?

So began a very made-in-Calgary version of a slum-clearing urban renewal type scheme, with Stampede and event infrastructure driving the case for renewal.

Problem was Victoria Park wasn’t empty as it is today, it had thousands of people living there and began to hate seeing their neighbourhood encroached by ever expanding event district footprint. The saga played out over a few decades of competing visions for the area, where Stampede pressed for expansion and big scale events, while the community resisted and proposed alternatives developed schemes like high density apartments and social housing. Politics became involved and various plans and proposals came and went over 2 decades.

The end effect was ironically what neither party really wanted. The neighbourhood was slowly dissolved to make way for the Stampede, however it took so long the Stampede's expansion really became obsolete, their expansion plans kind of fizzled out after reaching the current boundaries about 30 years ago ( they for decades wanted all of Victoria Park).

Turns out boosters aren’t good at estimating growth and demand - stampede attendance was plateauing right as this big battle for expansion began. While too late for Victoria Park, after a while general push back was growing that started to question the need for tax-payer funded expansion in the first place, especially when no real clear vision of what makes the expansion so needed can be presented (is lots of more parking lots really the best we can do?)

But as it relates to development - this long story is largely why nothing happened. The interplay between the competing visions for the area and city-endorsed Stampede expansion meant that urban development was iced out. Way easier to build apartments somewhere else without all the drama, politics and risks of being gobbled up by stampede one day. Victoria Park languished, missing the redevelopment boom that saved all the other struggling inner city communities of the 1980s.

The great irony is by trying to do so many big plans and schemes here, we have actually ended up with less of a neighbourhood than we started!
Great post!

I mostly agree with you, but I think you're placing a bit too much blame on the Stampede board.

A very similar story played out in West Eau Claire. Starting in 1960, many home were demolished and entire blocks were turned into parking lots. I assume the Stampede board had zero involvement, but then again I'm not well versed in the history of this area.

1982:
1763149104816.png


1966:
1763149174383.png
 
I assume the Stampede board had zero involvement, but then again I'm not well versed in the history of this area.

1982:
View attachment 695700

1966:
View attachment 695701

> Stampede board fails to send Trudeau Sr VIP invites to the big parties way back when.
> Usable kompromat on T Sr is not collected.
> Stampede board is powerless to stop NEP.
> NEP passes, DT development comes to a grinding halt.
> Newly cleared lots languish for decades.

Anything can be Stampede board's fault if you try hard enough!
 
> Stampede board fails to send Trudeau Sr VIP invites to the big parties way back when.
> Usable kompromat on T Sr is not collected.
> Stampede board is powerless to stop NEP.
> NEP passes, DT development comes to a grinding halt.
> Newly cleared lots languish for decades.

Anything can be Stampede board's fault if you try hard enough!
I heard the Stampede Board cancelled the Green Line!!
 
The destination of Scotia Place is the arena, convention centre, and the events inside. The best way to get people in the area when that isn't happening is to have residential. When people live somewhere, naturally restaurants, groceries, third spaces pop up. I think it's very difficult to create a destination for non-event days without significant residential.
This is my line of thinking as well. I don’t think arena is in convention centers, etc. ever draw vibrancy except for the narrow timeslots during events. Having people living in the area would certainly help as would help keep the retail busy when events aren’t happening.
Even that only goes so far. I’ve been to a a few Oilers games over the past couple of years and the area is busy for about an hour before the game and that’s it. I stayed at the Marriott for week and outside of the 2 hours before a game it’s a ghostown.
In my opinion, the best possible outcome for the area would be to fill the rest of the empty lots with residential buildings and have at least enough residents to support the businesses in the area, but it will never be a vibrant area like Kensington, Mission. Beltline, etc.
 
This is my line of thinking as well. I don’t think arena is in convention centers, etc. ever draw vibrancy except for the narrow timeslots during events. Having people living in the area would certainly help as would help keep the retail busy when events aren’t happening.
Even that only goes so far. I’ve been to a a few Oilers games over the past couple of years and the area is busy for about an hour before the game and that’s it. I stayed at the Marriott for week and outside of the 2 hours before a game it’s a ghostown.
In my opinion, the best possible outcome for the area would be to fill the rest of the empty lots with residential buildings and have at least enough residents to support the businesses in the area, but it will never be a vibrant area like Kensington, Mission. Beltline, etc.
One of the good things with the C+E is now having moved the arena north, BMO and Scotia Place are on the NW sides and not stuffed into the middle of Stampede, which reserves a ton of space for a 2 week event. And with two popular nodes, like EV and 17th with natural extensions into C+E, there's potential for the area. The future Green Line and Passenger rail (hopefully) will be huge as well.
 
This is my line of thinking as well. I don’t think arena is in convention centers, etc. ever draw vibrancy except for the narrow timeslots during events. Having people living in the area would certainly help as would help keep the retail busy when events aren’t happening.
Even that only goes so far. I’ve been to a a few Oilers games over the past couple of years and the area is busy for about an hour before the game and that’s it. I stayed at the Marriott for week and outside of the 2 hours before a game it’s a ghostown.
In my opinion, the best possible outcome for the area would be to fill the rest of the empty lots with residential buildings and have at least enough residents to support the businesses in the area, but it will never be a vibrant area like Kensington, Mission. Beltline, etc.
Well they create vibrancy, in that bringing thousands of people to an area who otherwise wouldn't, generates impact in that area. However, obviously, if you don't live there you don't have a reason to come more than a few hours early and leave a few hours after, that part isn't surprising. You're also creating far different types of venues than you would see in Mission/Kensington/Marda...those are you "local" shops, cafes, small restaurants, ect... They arent going to, and cant really, create that around Scotia Place. Think more along the lines of beltline venues like Central, Craft, National...places that can handle larger crowds and daytime business lunch rush.
 
Imagine how awesome it would have been to have a completely underground concourse connecting Scotia Place, BMO Centre (and the future hotel behind BMO Centre), Cowboys Casino, the two new Stampede hotels, and an additional concourse northwards integrating with the new Green Line station. Man, that would have been cool.
 
This is my line of thinking as well. I don’t think arena is in convention centers, etc. ever draw vibrancy except for the narrow timeslots during events. Having people living in the area would certainly help as would help keep the retail busy when events aren’t happening.
Even that only goes so far. I’ve been to a a few Oilers games over the past couple of years and the area is busy for about an hour before the game and that’s it. I stayed at the Marriott for week and outside of the 2 hours before a game it’s a ghostown.
In my opinion, the best possible outcome for the area would be to fill the rest of the empty lots with residential buildings and have at least enough residents to support the businesses in the area, but it will never be a vibrant area like Kensington, Mission. Beltline, etc.
I mean, never say never. vibrancy takes time, and it must be cultivated. Residential of a sufficient density is the core building block of a vibrant neighbourhood, so yes it needs to happen and it's absolutely possible in this instance. From the last masterplan we have seen that is still the plan for the wasteland north of the arena. It's just a question of when we'll get it and what form it will take.
 
Imagine how awesome it would have been to have a completely underground concourse connecting Scotia Place, BMO Centre (and the future hotel behind BMO Centre), Cowboys Casino, the two new Stampede hotels, and an additional concourse northwards integrating with the new Green Line station. Man, that would have been cool.
Some form of +15 would be interesting and easier to build in the future. I think underground concourses aren't great for vibrancy and as our climate gets warmer, there's really only 2/3 months of the year that's really needed.
 
Some form of +15 would be interesting and easier to build in the future. I think underground concourses aren't great for vibrancy and as our climate gets warmer, there's really only 2/3 months of the year that's really needed.

Yeah, I'm just spitballing an idea. I've been in successful underground concourses in Japan that connect major buildings together, and it's incredibly handy and effective. Sapporo, a city slightly bigger city in population and area than Calgary, is also a cold-weather city that has a massive underground shopping concourse in the middle of its downtown - and it's used extensively. Also not really onboard with the climate argument either; Calgary will not warm enough to a point where indoor-connected infrastructure isn't needed - Calgary is in a climactic zone that will always include cold weather (below 0 degrees) and snowy/wet conditions. The same reasoning could be used against the construction of +15's, by the way.

Not that any of this matters anyways, because nothing of the sort is getting built (and we don't have the interest, required capital or even foresight to do it) - but I do think as a city, we are now ready to have discussions about underground concourses (in the same vein as underground LRT stations), and this is the type of location that would be appropriate for one.
 
Yeah, I'm just spitballing an idea. I've been in successful underground concourses in Japan that connect major buildings together, and it's incredibly handy and effective. Sapporo, a city slightly bigger city in population and area than Calgary, is also a cold-weather city that has a massive underground shopping concourse in the middle of its downtown - and it's used extensively. Also not really onboard with the climate argument either; Calgary will not warm enough to a point where indoor-connected infrastructure isn't needed - Calgary is in a climactic zone that will always include cold weather (below 0 degrees) and snowy/wet conditions. The same reasoning could be used against the construction of +15's, by the way.

Not that any of this matters anyways, because nothing of the sort is getting built (and we don't have the interest, required capital or even foresight to do it) - but I do think as a city, we are now ready to have discussions about underground concourses (in the same vein as underground LRT stations), and this is the type of location that would be appropriate for one.
While I get what you mean, the Japan example isn't as applicable because population density is so, so much higher. They have a lot of large indoor underground shopping complexes, almost every major subway station has massive malls attached. They usually serve as transit connectors (say from Grand Central to City hall station in Calgary) between lines that are not directly connected. And because of the high density, it's just making the ground level not extremely crowded and spreading it vertically. Calgary doesn't have this problem, if we built an underground concourse, the result will be like the +15 or Path in Toronto where there's almost nothing at street level. And to keep certain elements out, it won't be open all day and likely close at 6pm.
 
Yeah, I'm just spitballing an idea. I've been in successful underground concourses in Japan that connect major buildings together, and it's incredibly handy and effective. Sapporo, a city slightly bigger city in population and area than Calgary, is also a cold-weather city that has a massive underground shopping concourse in the middle of its downtown - and it's used extensively. Also not really onboard with the climate argument either; Calgary will not warm enough to a point where indoor-connected infrastructure isn't needed - Calgary is in a climactic zone that will always include cold weather (below 0 degrees) and snowy/wet conditions. The same reasoning could be used against the construction of +15's, by the way.

Not that any of this matters anyways, because nothing of the sort is getting built (and we don't have the interest, required capital or even foresight to do it) - but I do think as a city, we are now ready to have discussions about underground concourses (in the same vein as underground LRT stations), and this is the type of location that would be appropriate for one.
Yeah it's an issue of population density. Right now there isn't the population density required to fill even the streets we already have in the area. It will take a long time before we achieve a population density that can fill them, let alone fill the streets AND an underground concourse
 
While I get what you mean, the Japan example isn't as applicable because population density is so, so much higher. They have a lot of large indoor underground shopping complexes, almost every major subway station has massive malls attached. They usually serve as transit connectors (say from Grand Central to City hall station in Calgary) between lines that are not directly connected. And because of the high density, it's just making the ground level not extremely crowded and spreading it vertically. Calgary doesn't have this problem, if we built an underground concourse, the result will be like the +15 or Path in Toronto where there's almost nothing at street level. And to keep certain elements out, it won't be open all day and likely close at 6pm.

Yes, for sure - not saying it's an apples to apples comparison with Sapporo, just that other cold-climate cities have them and they work (and the population density, isn't actually that far off between Sapporo and Calgary believe it or not). Personally, I believe an underground concourse connecting major facilities in the Rivers District would be worth the consideration given the annual foot traffic involved to all different connected facilities - and its connection to the Green Line and Stampede Station would be integral to its success as well. I don't see the 'nothing' at street level' being an issue, as this isn't cannibalizing the amenities ON street level - there simply isn't anything to cannibalize; this isn't downtown, replacing a mall or high density area of shopping.

Doesn't really matter anyways - it's not getting built and never will.
 

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