Calgary's Downtown Dilemma

[Surrealplaces]

I don't disagree with these solutions and extremely harsh punishment for drug use, as seen in East Asia, has largely prevented these drug use problems from developing in vulnerable populations. However, the large majority of Canadians do not. There's the obvious legal issues, but if a government used the notwithstanding clause to lock up offenders on small time offences, and we are now criminalizing fentanyl use with 20 year prison sentence, they'd lose political support quickly. The public has turned around on forced rehab, but it's only in the most extreme circumstances, that the majority of people just on drugs won't be far gone enough to qualify for forced rehab. Unless there is a change in public sentiment and on when personal freedoms can be taken away, we're stuck in the current stasis.

Agreed that stiff jail sentences aren't really a viable option. I threw it in there as one of the options often mentioned. Options 3 and 4 are options that might gain support, as public sentiment on personal freedoms has been changing in recent years, or at least it seems to have been changing. Maybe it's just my own observations.

Whatever the case may be, it brings us back to Red Star's question of what do we suggest? We as a society have been good at finding reasons why things won't work, but have had a hard time trying things out. With the situation as bad as it's been getting, we're going to have to start trying different things.

 

[Surrealplaces]

I think, generally, people are fine with harsh sentences, but the issue is that is too broad of a brush, and our lawyer class will not stand for it.

In other societies it is accepted that you lose your rights at a certain point, here, it is those that are at that certain point that actually have the greatest rights.

The mayor and council are teasing more coming of safety, curious what they'll prescribe. I think this "show of force" was a show and tell from the Police Chief for the new council on what more officers would look like. To me, it looked like handing out tickets to an unhoused person for throwing their cigarette on the ground. These shows need to be solution-based and more consistent.

Agreed. We place a lot of emphasis on personal freedoms, and rightly so, but at the same time there comes a point where many of these people don't really have true freedom anyway. They're already a slave to an addiction. Are they any less free being on forced rehab than they are dying on the street? It's a whole other conversation, but unless things change it's a forced conversation.

 

[trtcttc]

Agreed. We place a lot of emphasis on personal freedoms, and rightly so, but at the same time there comes a point where many of these people don't really have true freedom anyway. They're already a slave to an addiction. Are they any less free being on forced rehab than they are dying on the street? It's a whole other conversation, but unless things change it's a forced conversation.

Agreed with that sentiment. But it's human nature and broadly society that we are ok with harms one do to themselves and simply ignore it, but we have a much higher bar for things we/society/state impose on those same people. It's a flaw of people in my opinion. We are ok with a person living in terrible conditions in an encampment or out in the cold in winter, but if a prison doesn't have heating or prisoners have to sit "in their boxers zip tied facing a wall" we say that is "torturous and egregious" and they no longer has to face trial for pre-meditated murder.

Judge tosses murder charges over ‘torturous’ treatment at Ontario jail | Globalnews.ca

An Ontario judge has ordered the end to a first-degree murder case over the “torturous” treatment the accused experienced while incarcerated.

globalnews.ca

Another example is that story over the weekend of a massive, dangerous garbage dump in Cowichan territory that is likely leaching chemicals into the river, has been ongoing for years, and nobody cared (until now when they're in the news for the land title claims). But imagine if a company wanted to put a pipeline anywhere near a river, the amount of protests, sit ins, protection of "our sacred water source", etc. etc. would be nonstop.

Cowichan Tribes member handed pollution prevention order over huge dumping site - BC | Globalnews.ca

The Ministry of Environment says the materials are known to release substances including heavy metals such as arsenic, cadmium, copper, iron and lead.

globalnews.ca

 

[Surrealplaces]

Agreed with that sentiment. But it's human nature and broadly society that we are ok with harms one do to themselves and simply ignore it, but we have a much higher bar for things we/society/state impose on those same people. It's a flaw of people in my opinion. We are ok with a person living in terrible conditions in an encampment or out in the cold in winter, but if a prison doesn't have heating or prisoners have to sit "in their boxers zip tied facing a wall" we say that is "torturous and egregious" and they no longer has to face trial for pre-meditated murder.

That's very true.

 

[ByeByeBaby]

I'm not opposed to extra policing for the sake of public security, but it feels like these police initiatives are a bandaid solution and the money would be better spent on other solutions. Whatever we do, it'll involve spending money, and so many of those who cry out about the issues are the same ones who don't want to spend the money. Also of course it comes down to who foots the bill. The city? the province or the feds?

From a high level view of simplicity there are a few options.

1) lock up all offenders and if they are a violent or repeat a offender, keep them in jail for a long period.
2) lock up all offenders and if the offender has a substance abuse issue, keep them in jail for a long period
3) lock up all offenders and if the offender has a substance abuse issue, keep them in forced rehab
4) for those with severe mental health issues keep them locked up in forced treatment
5) for those who aren't violent and don't have mental health issues and don't have substance abuse issues, get them into some sort of housing
6) offer homeless people a free uber chit for a trip to Edmonton lol
7) some sort of combination of all of the above

Without being an expert on homeless issues, option 7, while being the most expensive, seems like the most likely to succeed.

How indeed could we deal with unhoused people?

1) housing
2) housing
3) housing
4) housing
5) housing
6) housing in Edmonton
7) combination of the above

Hmmm...

 

[UrbanWarrior]

8. Mandated annual wage increases for people making under 60k per year, pegged to the cost of living index.
9. Rent control.
10. Doubling the amount of mental health resources available nationwide.

 

[Cowtown]

How indeed could we deal with unhoused people?

1) housing
2) housing
3) housing
4) housing
5) housing
6) housing in Edmonton
7) combination of the above

Hmmm...

Simplistic views like this are part of reason we have this issue. Offer housing and it’s a magic wand that solves the issue. 20 years ago that would’ve been the case but not these days.

Housing works for some of the homeless, but for a large amount with severe mental health and/or drug addictions it does not help at all.

 

[Cowtown]

8. Mandated annual wage increases for people making under 60k per year, pegged to the cost of living index.
9. Rent control.
10. Doubling the amount of mental health resources available nationwide.

That and solving the drug addiction issue. Both are very difficult however, we can add more mental health resources, but does that solve the mental health issues first all? There will be some who have mental health issues that can’t be resolved.

 

[AJX]

How indeed could we deal with unhoused people?

1) housing
2) housing
3) housing
4) housing
5) housing
6) housing in Edmonton
7) combination of the above

Hmmm...

That’s only one solution and it’s not going to work for everyone. Once you get some of the people housed, what are you going do with the rest of the people where housing doesn’t work?

 

[thommyjo]

I'm not opposed to extra policing for the sake of public security, but it feels like these police initiatives are a bandaid solution and the money would be better spent on other solutions. Whatever we do, it'll involve spending money, and so many of those who cry out about the issues are the same ones who don't want to spend the money. Also of course it comes down to who foots the bill. The city? the province or the feds?

From a high level view of simplicity there are a few options.

1) lock up all offenders and if they are a violent or repeat a offender, keep them in jail for a long period.
2) lock up all offenders and if the offender has a substance abuse issue, keep them in jail for a long period
3) lock up all offenders and if the offender has a substance abuse issue, keep them in forced rehab
4) for those with severe mental health issues keep them locked up in forced treatment
5) for those who aren't violent and don't have mental health issues and don't have substance abuse issues, get them into some sort of housing
6) offer homeless people a free uber chit for a trip to Edmonton lol
7) some sort of combination of all of the above

Without being an expert on homeless issues, option 7, while being the most expensive, seems like the most likely to succeed.

I know the Edmonton comment is a joke, but if we wanted an objective take on it, Calgary should either be sending a sizeable amount of it’s municipal budget to Edmonton or we should ensure the addition of a new prison in Calgary soon and Edmonton should be allowed to send down folks needing services.

The disproportionate burden Edmonton taxpayers carry, to the benefit of calgarians, is such a joke. The governments screwed Edmonton with way more inmates and less funding, even though Edmonton has to absorb social problems for all of northern Alberta while Calgary gets off easy. The best solution would be moving police budgets onto the province potentially as policing costs are often more regional/provincial than municipal, and then also ensuring any future prisons end up in Calgary so they contribute to carrying the burden of criminals being released into their city and the tax expenses of that.

 

[AJX]

I know the Edmonton comment is a joke, but if we wanted an objective take on it, Calgary should either be sending a sizeable amount of it’s municipal budget to Edmonton or we should ensure the addition of a new prison in Calgary soon and Edmonton should be allowed to send down folks needing services.

The disproportionate burden Edmonton taxpayers carry, to the benefit of calgarians, is such a joke. The governments screwed Edmonton with way more inmates and less funding, even though Edmonton has to absorb social problems for all of northern Alberta while Calgary gets off easy. The best solution would be moving police budgets onto the province potentially as policing costs are often more regional/provincial than municipal, and then also ensuring any future prisons end up in Calgary so they contribute to carrying the burden of criminals being released into their city and the tax expenses of

Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t the prisons in Edmonton either provincial or federally funded? The only prisons in Edmonton paid for by local Edmonton taxpayers would be the police station holding cells, no?

 

[Surrealplaces]

I know the Edmonton comment is a joke, but if we wanted an objective take on it, Calgary should either be sending a sizeable amount of it’s municipal budget to Edmonton or we should ensure the addition of a new prison in Calgary soon and Edmonton should be allowed to send down folks needing services.

The disproportionate burden Edmonton taxpayers carry, to the benefit of calgarians, is such a joke. The governments screwed Edmonton with way more inmates and less funding, even though Edmonton has to absorb social problems for all of northern Alberta while Calgary gets off easy. The best solution would be moving police budgets onto the province potentially as policing costs are often more regional/provincial than municipal, and then also ensuring any future prisons end up in Calgary so they contribute to carrying the burden of criminals being released into their city and the tax expenses of that.

None of the prisons are funded from municipal budgets. Edmonton hosts most of the prisons for Alberta, but they're funded by the province or the federal government. If anything it's creating jobs for the Edmonton area, you should be happy with the situation.

 

[Surrealplaces]

How indeed could we deal with unhoused people?

1) housing
2) housing
3) housing
4) housing
5) housing
6) housing in Edmonton
7) combination of the above

Hmmm...

Housing is one of the pieces, but housing alone is not going to solve the issue.

 

[Tarsus]

I know the Edmonton comment is a joke, but if we wanted an objective take on it, Calgary should either be sending a sizeable amount of it’s municipal budget to Edmonton or we should ensure the addition of a new prison in Calgary soon and Edmonton should be allowed to send down folks needing services.

The disproportionate burden Edmonton taxpayers carry, to the benefit of calgarians, is such a joke. The governments screwed Edmonton with way more inmates and less funding, even though Edmonton has to absorb social problems for all of northern Alberta while Calgary gets off easy. The best solution would be moving police budgets onto the province potentially as policing costs are often more regional/provincial than municipal, and then also ensuring any future prisons end up in Calgary so they contribute to carrying the burden of criminals being released into their city and the tax expenses of that.

@thommyjo with all due respect, you posted this same rant a while back and it was pointed out to you that Edmonton municipal taxpayers do not fund the prisons. Please don’t bring up this rant again until you’ve done some research.

 

[trtcttc]

I know the Edmonton comment is a joke, but if we wanted an objective take on it, Calgary should either be sending a sizeable amount of it’s municipal budget to Edmonton or we should ensure the addition of a new prison in Calgary soon and Edmonton should be allowed to send down folks needing services.

The disproportionate burden Edmonton taxpayers carry, to the benefit of calgarians, is such a joke. The governments screwed Edmonton with way more inmates and less funding, even though Edmonton has to absorb social problems for all of northern Alberta while Calgary gets off easy. The best solution would be moving police budgets onto the province potentially as policing costs are often more regional/provincial than municipal, and then also ensuring any future prisons end up in Calgary so they contribute to carrying the burden of criminals being released into their city and the tax expenses of that.

With similar population and school enrollment, Calgary's higher housing values pay $1.037 billion towards education, while Edmonton pays $575 million. The entire provincial corrections budget is about $350 million. Not to mention Calgary's higher income pays for a higher portion of the provincial personal income tax revenue. Edmonton, being the seat of the provincial government, a lot of government expenditure (people) go back into the local economy. The idea that Edmonton is subsidizing Calgary is pretty laughable.

Usually it's the big cities that subsidize the rural parts of a province. It's a bit complicated in AB since a lot of our resources are rural, while the company is in Calgary/Edmonton so its attributed there, but without rural roads, irrigation systems, etc. those companies cannot generate that revenue.