Urban Development and Proposals Discussion

[trtcttc]

Migration numbers continue to be decent, what we seemed to lose since the winter was the continued influx of temporary newcomers. The people who continue to come here are likely putting down longer term roots. Wonder if that helps condo sales... The rental wave may be over though. We'll see.

Condo prices have fallen a lot in the GTA/GVA that the delta between condo prices in Calgary is pretty small at this point. If someone was to move here inter-provincially, it's unlikely they'd make the move to save 50-100k on a condo, but more likely looking to save the $1M+ on a single family home.

 

[TooBizzy]

Apologies for the totally random question but has anyone ever had difficulties accessing the forum while traveling? I'm down at a hotel in Mexico and keep getting a Forbidden error every time I try to access the forum via the hotel wifi however if I access the forum via the mobile network, it loads no problem. Just curious if it's a weird quirk of the network of the hotel I'm staying at or something related to international access to the forum that others have come across before?

For sure, happened to me when trying to browse from Nepal on hotel wifi, don't recall if it worked on my phone or not.

 

[TooBizzy]

Triovest (The developer behind Stephen Avenue Quarter) has applied for a land use on the site next to Keynote, which is going to CPC on Thursday. They are asking for 8.0 FAR; 12.0 FAR with bonusing.

On a site like that, 12.0 FAR would put it quite tall. For reference, Stampede Station is applying for 19.5 FAR and has two towers.

View attachment 684375

Site is listed as 3,600m2 in the land use amendment document, 12 FAR means floor area budget of 43,200. If the development were just a 800m2 extrusion coming out of the ground with a floor-to-floor height of 3.2m, it would be 54s/172.8m tall, not counting taller mechanical floors or taller lobby, or crown or anything, so perhaps we could round that up to 180m for max reasonably achievable height.

It's almost certain they will want a commercial podium on at least the north side of the site, if not across the whole site, which siphons some floor area (and height) away from the tower. A betting man might expect something around 130-150m on this site, quite a bit taller than its neighbour, BLVD (110m), but also barely half the height of Stampede Station.

 

[DougB]

Site is listed as 3,600m2 in the land use amendment document, 12 FAR means floor area budget of 43,200. If the development were just a 800m2 extrusion coming out of the ground with a floor-to-floor height of 3.2m, it would be 54s/172.8m tall, not counting taller mechanical floors or taller lobby, or crown or anything, so perhaps we could round that up to 180m for max reasonably achievable height.

It's almost certain they will want a commercial podium on at least the north side of the site, if not across the whole site, which siphons some floor area (and height) away from the tower. A betting man might expect something around 130-150m on this site, quite a bit taller than its neighbour, BLVD (110m), but also barely half the height of Stampede Station.

The bigger drag is the end of investor demand. It is difficult for the Millennial generation and younger to comprehend that condos are nothing more than a place to live

 

[Mountain Man]

Hmmm, perhaps even super tall?

Would a supertall cast a shadow on Olympic Plaza?

 

[Surrealplaces]

Condo prices have fallen a lot in the GTA/GVA that the delta between condo prices in Calgary is pretty small at this point. If someone was to move here inter-provincially, it's unlikely they'd make the move to save 50-100k on a condo, but more likely looking to save the $1M+ on a single family home.

It also depends on where the condo is. There are still condos in the NE that would be 150K cheaper than the same in suburban Toronto. The difference between 300K and 450K is a lot for people in that bracket. Other parts of the city the not so much, and in that case most people would be saving money on SFHs.

 

[outoftheice]

Will have a big impact on Quarry Park. I wonder if it will be easy to find a company to take over the office space Imperial will be leaving?

Calgary-based Imperial Oil says it will be eliminating 20 per cent of its workforce by the end of 2027.

That will mean approximately 900 jobs, most of which are in Calgary, will be lost. In a statement to CBC News, company spokesperson Lisa Schmidt said most of the remaining Calgary positions will be relocated to the Strathcona Refinery in Edmonton in late 2028.

"We plan to maintain a small presence in Calgary," she said.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/imperial-oil-downsizing-1.7646918

 

[Mountain Man]

Not sure if there are any companies looking for a new HQ, think that space would likely need to be broken up into multiple tenancies. A post secondary or healthcare use could maybe take the entire space, any colleges or hospitals looking for more space?

 

[Surrealplaces]

If the green line were up and running through QP, it would help with interest in leasing the office space, but honestly with all the office space downtown, it won't be an easy sell. I think what @Mountain Man said is correct. It'll have to be divvied up into chunks.

 

[darwink]

Not sure if there are any companies looking for a new HQ, think that space would likely need to be broken up into multiple tenancies. A post secondary or healthcare use could maybe take the entire space, any colleges or hospitals looking for more space?

Post secondary would be 100% dependent on the provincial government funding it. Healthcare, thats a hard one-the retrofit could be as much as building new. With the huge parkade, it could be a fit for something like the HQ of the new provincial police much like Westwinds for the Calgary Police. Would also be around the right size for something like an Alberta government revenue agency (a bad idea, but that is neither here nor there for this discussion).

If the green line were up and running through QP, it would help with interest in leasing the office space, but honestly with all the office space downtown, it won't be an easy sell. I think what @Mountain Man said is correct. It'll have to be divvied up into chunks.

Some interior photos available here: https://www.avenuecalgary.com/city-...l-oil-limiteds-20-acre-campus-in-quarry-park/

Would require work to accomodate multiple users, with the central meeting and food complex.

 

[Surrealplaces]

It would be nice if they could find a single tenant, would be much easier. If the UCP has their way, maybe the future Alberta Pension Plan office!

 

[trtcttc]

Post secondary would be 100% dependent on the provincial government funding it. Healthcare, thats a hard one-the retrofit could be as much as building new. With the huge parkade, it could be a fit for something like the HQ of the new provincial police much like Westwinds for the Calgary Police. Would also be around the right size for something like an Alberta government revenue agency (a bad idea, but that is neither here nor there for this discussion).



Some interior photos available here: https://www.avenuecalgary.com/city-...l-oil-limiteds-20-acre-campus-in-quarry-park/

Would require work to accomodate multiple users, with the central meeting and food complex.

That building does look pretty expensive to operate. If they had a downtown office space, much easier to scale down.

 

[Red Star]

Will have a big impact on Quarry Park. I wonder if it will be easy to find a company to take over the office space Imperial will be leaving?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/imperial-oil-downsizing-1.7646918

They could do the first commercial to residential conversion of an empty office building outside of downtown

 

[CBBarnett]

Quarry Park has become a pretty textbook example on pros and cons of the 1990s suburban office park scheme, particularly when a single anchor tenant plays such an out-sized role. Their headquarters would be a huge hole to fill, probably not realistic in today's economy for a long while (now a decade on with 25 to 30% vacancy rates).

The neighbourhood overall is diversifying into more residential, but will forever be hamstrung by the bones of it that assumed a 1990s-style, auto-centric commuter-based office park place. Hard to retrofit with limited demand for office space anywhere, let alone such a huge supply in a not particularly central location.

The lesson in Quarry Park is the same as the city and the general economy:

• encourage more economic diversity at all levels, in all forms - putting all your eggs in one basket, one company or one industry is risky and fragile.
• don't overdesign a building, place, neighbourhood or city to be only type of place assuming that change will never happen, it will backfire eventually.
• encourage more development to occur in more efficient areas to allow for better access to agglomeration forces and citywide labour markets to build resilience.

 

[darwink]

Quarry Park has become a pretty textbook example on pros and cons of the 1990s suburban office park scheme, particularly when a single anchor tenant plays such an out-sized role. Their headquarters would be a huge hole to fill, probably not realistic in today's economy for a long while (now a decade on with 25 to 30% vacancy rates).

The neighbourhood overall is diversifying into more residential, but will forever be hamstrung by the bones of it that assumed a 1990s-style, auto-centric commuter-based office park place. Hard to retrofit with limited demand for anywhere near that office space anywhere, let along somewhere not particularly central.

The lesson in Quarry Park is the same as the city and the general economy:

• encourage more economic diversity at all levels, in all forms - putting all your eggs in one basket, one company or one industry is risky and fragile.
• don't overdesign a building, place, neighbourhood or city to be only type of place assuming that change will never happen, it will backfire eventually.
• encourage more development to occur in more efficient areas to allow for better access to agglomeration forces and citywide labour markets to build resilience.

For information, the complex is currently a single title and last switched hands in 2016 for $417 million bucks.