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Urban Development and Proposals Discussion

Surrealplaces said:
... At the same time it makes you wonder how Scandinavian countries can have relaxed punishment for drug offenses, and still not have the issues we have.
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Sweden is zero tolerance for most drug offenses, both sale/manufacture and use. Illegal drugs includes cannabis. Zero-tolerance includes driving after consuming a number of legal drugs [alcohol or even some prescription] as well. The health-care system oversees rehab which usually takes place in a distant community from where you live (both for privacy and to remove you from your sources); a prison term often follows.

Can't speak for the rest of Scandinavia.
 
rbt said:
Sweden is zero tolerance for most drug offenses, both sale/manufacture and use. Illegal drugs includes cannabis. Zero-tolerance includes driving after consuming a number of legal drugs [alcohol or even some prescription] as well. The health-care system oversees rehab which usually takes place in a distant community from where you live (both for privacy and to remove you from your sources); a prison term often follows.

Can't speak for the rest of Scandinavia.
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So the prison terms are harsher in Sweden? Not disagreeing, just asking. I had been under the impression they were more lax than ours, but I might be thinking of Denmark or Norway.
 
Surrealplaces said:
So the prison terms are harsher in Sweden? Not disagreeing, just asking. I had been under the impression they were more lax than ours, but I might be thinking of Denmark or Norway.
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Having spent a reasonable amount of time in Denmark and particularly Copenhagen, I would say that Denmark is mostly socially liberal and permissive as you can see with places like Freetown, Christiania. However, in the same vain I would say that Danes are culturally protective and require people to integrate within their culture, that culture being one that does not accept social disorder or people ruining things for everyone else.

I mean you can walk up to the front doors at Amelienborg Palace and knock on the door if you want. Sometimes by being accepting of everything you can lose track of the things that made a place nice to be in the first place. Having lived inner city here, in Vancouver and Toronto, there is this culture of not wanting to get involved and shutting up and walking away as you don't want to get in trouble for intervening either from the individual or the authorities. In a lot of other places it isn't that way, the culture is to stop that highly dysfunctional activity in public spaces right there, sometimes in ways that people wouldn't like. They have a strong social safety net but also a complete expectation that you respect and assimilate into Danish culture (whether that is good or not is up to you) and not fuck up the city for others to enjoy and they are likely to enforce that. I don't think that mentality necessarily jives with a lot of Canadians, but that is how it seems those countries do it.
 
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Personally, I'm all for forcibly cleaning things up. Use a heavy hand, harsh sentences for possession more than what a person can use (I don't use so I don't know what that is). Send the drug users far away for a couple years. I guess they could go to a work camp but honestly what work do those people do to contribute, they won't be making license plates. Another issue with this is, sure you're doing this, but if everyone across the country is doing different things, it won't work. I don't think users are that transient but it's not like zero tolerance would be easy if you're the only one doing it.
 
Surrealplaces said:
So the prison terms are harsher in Sweden? Not disagreeing, just asking. I had been under the impression they were more lax than ours, but I might be thinking of Denmark or Norway.
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Possessing a single joint results in a fine but a repeat offender (a single joint multiple occasions) may receive prison sentence: this is unquestionably harsher than Canada. Driving after a single alcoholic drink (BAC over 0.02) is a fine. They tend to use day-fines which scale with income: a fine might be 3 days income for example.

Generally first-offense for manufacture or distribution results in a sentence of 2 to 6 years [maximum of 18 years for repeat offender] and first-offense personal use results in a fine. Drug related convictions make up about 25% of their prison population.

I'm not actually sure what Canada's punishments are at the moment; last time I looked was during Harper: someone I know got 6 months for distribution + 2 years probation.
 
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Surrealplaces said:
I don't think harsher sentences is the be all end all, but I have to believe it would help slow it down. The other side of the coin is the users, if the users are in jail or in rehab, there's less people to sell to. I suspect that's the case in countries like China. At the same time it makes you wonder how Scandinavian countries can have relaxed punishment for drug offenses, and still not have the issues we have.
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We never attached the relaxed sanctions to drug treatment at scale. Mostly since we're cheap.
 
Calgcouver said:
Having spent a reasonable amount of time in Denmark and particularly Copenhagen, I would say that Denmark is mostly socially liberal and permissive as you can see with places like Freetown, Christiania. However, in the same vain I would say that Danes are culturally protective and require people to integrate within their culture, that culture being one that does not accept social disorder or people ruining things for everyone else.
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From what I've seen that seems to be the norm for a lot of countries, or at least the ones I've visited.

Also from my time in some of the middle eastern countries, the punishment is harsher for drug use and social disobedience, but often shame on oneself or the family is a larger deterrent, and families will work hard at being part of the policing so to speak. Committing needless disorder like theft or vandalism brings a lot of shame and many people fear that more than the fines or jail.
CalgaryTiger said:
Personally, I'm all for forcibly cleaning things up. Use a heavy hand, harsh sentences for possession more than what a person can use (I don't use so I don't know what that is). Send the drug users far away for a couple years. I guess they could go to a work camp but honestly what work do those people do to contribute, they won't be making license plates. Another issue with this is, sure you're doing this, but if everyone across the country is doing different things, it won't work. I don't think users are that transient but it's not like zero tolerance would be easy if you're the only one doing it.
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I would be in support of enforced drug rehab, for a at least trial use. The jury seems to be divided on whether it actually works or not, but it's probably worth a try to see the results. It's not likely the be all end all, but it might work for some people. If it doesn't work for anyone, eliminate it from the equation and move on.
 
Surrealplaces said:
The jury seems to be divided on whether it actually works or not
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This depends on your goal, to bring it all the way back to this conversation being in this thread... Would the urban realm be better off?

For the short term, maybe, at huge costs, but maybe those costs are only medium term and once you've lowered your intake maybe you can start to lower your costs.

Realistically, I think to give enforced rehab a honest try, you need to give it a minimum of five years but even then, I don't think you start to see meaningful change for ten years.
 
CalgaryTiger said:
This depends on your goal, to bring it all the way back to this conversation being in this thread... Would the urban realm be better off?

For the short term, maybe, at huge costs, but maybe those costs are only medium term and once you've lowered your intake maybe you can start to lower your costs.

Realistically, I think to give enforced rehab a honest try, you need to give it a minimum of five years but even then, I don't think you start to see meaningful change for ten years.
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For sure, it would have to be tested for a while to make sure it either works or doesn't work. They could also look at other studies and see what part of it works or doesn't and if it doesn't work, whether it was tested long enough, or if there are differencing factors, etc..
There's no question the urban realm would be better off with these people being dealt with, but just a matter of which way works the best.
 
Red Star said:
It's sad but true. No one is really serious about solving the homeless/opioid crisis...and this is why we can't have nice things.

Glass panels on the Peace bridge? Nope
Want to sit down at a bench in C-Square in East Village? No way.
If you're a woman and want to check your phone at City Hall C-train station? Don't relax.

I have a co-worker from China and he is surprised by the amount of homeless people in Canada. He said that in Guangzhou you can walk the busy streets at any time of day and night and never feel unsafe, never see open drug use or never see homeless people.
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I’d guess homeless is a crime there
 
Aardappel said:
I'm not entirely sure but looks like a new office conversion project was announced at 606 4st sw. Another 166 rental units in the heart of down-town, extremely close to the c-train station of 4st WB Station along with the core itself. Extremely central location in all honesty and generally a pretty good place for some extra bodies in Downtown.
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There have been some rumors about that one getting converted to residential for a while. Nice to see some movement on it.
 
Aardappel said:
I'm not entirely sure but looks like a new office conversion project was announced at 606 4st sw. Another 166 rental units in the heart of down-town, extremely close to the c-train station of 4st WB Station along with the core itself. Extremely central location in all honesty and generally a pretty good place for some extra bodies in Downtown.
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storeys.com

Dream Office REIT Secures Grant To Convert 16-Storey Office Tower In Calgary

The office building sits at 606 4th Street SW and Dream Office REIT (TSX: D.UN) has secured an $11 million grant via Calgary's office conversion incentive program.
storeys.com storeys.com
 
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