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Urban Development and Proposals Discussion

Duck Lightning said:
I'm assuming that the Stampede is opposing protected bike lanes on Stampede Trail because of the fear that it'll get in the way of the on street parking.
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Street parking can be useful in certain retail/main street contexts - but that's not what this street is now or likely will be in the future, despite all the words used to sell this corridor on the public. It is and will likely remain a major facility/event street - a probable 20,000-seat arena, a million+ sqft convention centre and a few other similar facilities will dictate traffic flows and needs.

To that end, whatever amount of supply of street parking - and vehicle access to Stampede grounds in general - will all be totally overwhelmed when the designers of this street think they need it regardless of how much of it they build. The math just doesn't work for a concentrated 20,000 person events and cars.

Because the stakeholders that influenced this design outcome want lay-bys anyways, the trade for the capacity of a few dozen parked cars is the connectivity of cycling entirely plus restricting the sidewalk width (sidewalks being the main tool you have to relieve congestion in these high volume event situations). Note the driveway access ramps are designed to remain sloped too. So the pedestrians aren't even prioritized in their own domain.

Every move since the arena debacle kicked off a few years back keeps reinforcing my hypothesis that the Stampede, CMLC and CSEC combo really can't or won't imagine the grounds as anything other than it is. Probably bits and pieces of blame to go around the table, but the outcome inches ever forward to a bias towards the status quo and the continued failure to consider non-automotive travel in any meaningfully different way in the area. All the more unfortunate because cycling and walking are the actual solutions they are looking for; prioritizing them meaningfully means you no longer have any space constraints caused by major events. They should be the last part of the street to trade-off, not the first.

In the end, all these bits and pieces of CMLC news are slowly ending us back where we started - a shiny, modern version of a 1980s sports/event cluster replacing what we have, not improving it materially.
 
CBBarnett said:
Street parking can be useful in certain retail/main street contexts - but that's not what this street is now or likely will be in the future, despite all the words used to sell this corridor on the public. It is and will likely remain a major facility/event street - a probable 20,000-seat arena, a million+ sqft convention centre and a few other similar facilities will dictate traffic flows and needs.

To that end, whatever amount of supply of street parking - and vehicle access to Stampede grounds in general - will all be totally overwhelmed when the designers of this street think they need it regardless of how much of it they build. The math just doesn't work for a concentrated 20,000 person events and cars.

Because the stakeholders that influenced this design outcome want lay-bys anyways, the trade for the capacity of a few dozen parked cars is the connectivity of cycling entirely plus restricting the sidewalk width (sidewalks being the main tool you have to relieve congestion in these high volume event situations). Note the driveway access ramps are designed to remain sloped too. So the pedestrians aren't even prioritized in their own domain.

Every move since the arena debacle kicked off a few years back keeps reinforcing my hypothesis that the Stampede, CMLC and CSEC combo really can't or won't imagine the grounds as anything other than it is. Probably bits and pieces of blame to go around the table, but the outcome inches ever forward to a bias towards the status quo and the continued failure to consider non-automotive travel in any meaningfully different way in the area. All the more unfortunate because cycling and walking are the actual solutions they are looking for; prioritizing them meaningfully means you no longer have any space constraints caused by major events. They should be the last part of the street to trade-off, not the first.

In the end, all these bits and pieces of CMLC news are slowly ending us back where we started - a shiny, modern version of a 1980s sports/event cluster replacing what we have, not improving it materially.
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Couldn't have said it any better myself and also gets to one of my biggest issues with the City of Calgary's new downtown strategy.

The 80's: Build the Saddledome, build Arts Commons, build the BMO Centre, build Olympic Plaza, build LRT. Revitalize downtown.

The new plan: Build a new arena, expand and renovate Arts Commons, expand the BMO Centre, renovate Olympic Plaza, build the Green Line. Revitalize downtown.

Yes, the downtown strategy does include some other pieces but some of the bigger spends are all centred around redoing what we did in the 80s and hoping it will somehow lead to better results this time. Imagine if the City of Calgary took a small fraction of the money it wanted to spend on the new arena and approached Triovest and offered to fund the restoration and heritage protection of all the buildings along 7th Ave that they want to tear down and tried to create a bunch of art incubator, studio and gallery spaces to complement Arts Commons. Then just for good measure they stuck a glass roof over the alley between Stephen Ave and 7th Ave to create a Victorian style arcade that is popular in some cities in the UK and they put up a bunch of murals, art pieces and market stalls in that space. Suddenly Calgary has a really cool full block heritage district, farmers market and arts space in the heart of its downtown that draws people in.

Would it be successful? Well it certainly helped when the City of Calgary essentially did the same thing in the late 90s and offered property owners funding to turn Stephen Ave into a restored heritage district. It could probably be done for a quarter of what citizens are on the hook for to build the new arena. The problem is I don't think anything innovative like this was ever really contemplated. Instead we're once again playing our best hits from the 80s. The street design on Stampede Trail is just the latest evidence of that.
 
Mountain Man said:
That would be my guess as well. Plus I'm sure the crusty old men on the board hate cycling and bike lanes in general! lol
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I imagine there isn’t a single member who’s ever been on a bicycle.

What happened with CMLC? They were killing it for a good period of time. Seems since Michael Brown stepped down as CEO the groundwork laid by Chris Ollenberger and team has been eroded.
 
haltcatchfire said:
I imagine there isn’t a single member who’s ever been on a bicycle.

What happened with CMLC? They were killing it for a good period of time. Seems since Michael Brown stepped down as CEO the groundwork laid by Chris Ollenberger and team has been eroded.
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They only fulfill the mandate they are given. They are not an advocate. For this project the city is not the proponent. The Stampede is the client. They're supposed to overrule their client?
 
CBBarnett said:
Street parking can be useful in certain retail/main street contexts - but that's not what this street is now or likely will be in the future, despite all the words used to sell this corridor on the public. It is and will likely remain a major facility/event street - a probable 20,000-seat arena, a million+ sqft convention centre and a few other similar facilities will dictate traffic flows and needs.

To that end, whatever amount of supply of street parking - and vehicle access to Stampede grounds in general - will all be totally overwhelmed when the designers of this street think they need it regardless of how much of it they build. The math just doesn't work for a concentrated 20,000 person events and cars.

Because the stakeholders that influenced this design outcome want lay-bys anyways, the trade for the capacity of a few dozen parked cars is the connectivity of cycling entirely plus restricting the sidewalk width (sidewalks being the main tool you have to relieve congestion in these high volume event situations). Note the driveway access ramps are designed to remain sloped too. So the pedestrians aren't even prioritized in their own domain.

Every move since the arena debacle kicked off a few years back keeps reinforcing my hypothesis that the Stampede, CMLC and CSEC combo really can't or won't imagine the grounds as anything other than it is. Probably bits and pieces of blame to go around the table, but the outcome inches ever forward to a bias towards the status quo and the continued failure to consider non-automotive travel in any meaningfully different way in the area. All the more unfortunate because cycling and walking are the actual solutions they are looking for; prioritizing them meaningfully means you no longer have any space constraints caused by major events. They should be the last part of the street to trade-off, not the first.

In the end, all these bits and pieces of CMLC news are slowly ending us back where we started - a shiny, modern version of a 1980s sports/event cluster replacing what we have, not improving it materially.
Click to expand...
Great comment, my only critique is there is it is not a probable 20,000 person event centre. It is an existing 20,000 person event centre there already, called the Saddledome..
 
MichaelS said:
When it is CRL funded yes.
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The city signed off without plans. The Stampede is the client. If the City wants the Stampede to do something else, it is the city's job to tell the stampede to do something else. CMLC is not a city department.

This is the same as when people thought CMLC not being in the arena project was bad because the city then had less influence on it. Balderdash.

The city should stop directing that CMLC be used to deliver non-city projects, because clearly then the city takes its eyes off the ball.
 
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