Urban Development and Proposals Discussion

[CBBarnett]

"My Beltline is growing faster than my beltline!"

Seriously though...

A few short years ago, I would have described Calgary's main problem as lacking visible infrastructure for retail, arts, nightlife, and active lifestyle in the inner city. Yes, there were all of those things if you knew where to look, and the suburbs were fine (according to expectations of what suburbs ought to offer) but the inner city was a tough sell to people considering alternatives like Vancouver and Montreal. These stats about the Beltline's growth confirm that the inner city continues to improve and attract investment. Parking lots give way to offices and condos; auto thoroughfares give way to multimodal streets with separated bike lanes, parklets, street art, and attractive lighting. It's been 100 years since the Beltline has felt so safe, livable, and optimistic.

That said, there are some major concerns. Namely, the vast majority of Calgary's growth continues to be suburban. That in itself is not necessarily a problem, but undoubtedly it will contribute to (a) a dramatic regional increase in kilometers-driven-by-private-vehicles and (b) an increasing urban/suburban political divide.

My prognosis is that the market forces that create sprawl are nearly intractable, especially in the prairies where supply is so high. We can limit subsidies, but ultimately it may be human nature to choose a house with many rooms on a large and quiet property to tasteful and modest harmony with one's community (at least at a certain stage in life). I believe the prescription for this ailment is not to ignore and write off our wasting appendages, but rather to draw the suburbs into the fold with a minimum guaranteed level of (unsubsidized) transit and active infrastructure to encourage inclusion and participation in our utopian project. Apologies for the hyperbole, but it is what it is. We want every man, woman, and child to feel that the inner city is theirs.

And so, my point is that we should temper our celebration of Beltline growth with attention to the reality that this success pales in comparison to our continued tendency to sprawl.

Agree completely. The Beltline's continued success should be viewed in context of the overall machine - a relatively minor drop in a suburban bucket. Taking the inner city communities of the traditional urban core (Sunnyside, DT (Centre, West End), EV, Beltline, Bankview, Sunalta, Mission, Inglewood, Bridgeland, LMR, Cliff Bung) Calgary's urban core is up ~7,000 in the last 5 years to around 70,000 people. That is great, but nothing compared to the 200,000 we added overall, largely to the fringes.

This is one way that size will help us. Every competitor city in Canada has a far stronger "sprawl-wall" pressures: Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are so large they push more into a more urban existence because suburban life on the edge becomes increasingly impractical. Commute times and congestion start biting into quality of life and put pressure on housing expectations once a city gets large enough that roads and low-density sprawl can no longer support the lifestyle then often espouse (one of freedom). Calgary has only begun to have that conversation, buoyed for a long time thanks to ultra-high incomes and high suburban subsidies that kept the suburban dream alive longer here than elsewhere.

With that said, the green-shoots are everywhere as this process has begun. Townhomes and infills cover wide swaths of the inner city outside the core and small apartments are springing up farther afield - from Killarney to Dalhousie to Albert Park. New inner communities are designed as urban ones - East Village, but also Currie and University District - are being designed at unheard of densities from opening day. Still drops in a bucket, but what is an ocean but a multitude of drops?

 

[BKha]

Things are trending positively for the Beltline, but you're right, the issue of sprawl is still at hand. Toronto and Vancouver would likely be no different if not for natural limitations on growth, same for any other city really. The majority of people will typically go for the single family home due to the affordability, but a good number of people would pick the inner city if they could get the same cost per square foot. I know numerous people who would rather live in the inner city but balk at the price per sq foot. Perhaps the city needs to increase the basic levies on SFH construction and at the same time increase spending on the inner city neighbourhoods.

"My Beltline is growing faster than my beltline!"

Seriously though...

A few short years ago, I would have described Calgary's main problem as lacking visible infrastructure for retail, arts, nightlife, and active lifestyle in the inner city. Yes, there were all of those things if you knew where to look, and the suburbs were fine (according to expectations of what suburbs ought to offer) but the inner city was a tough sell to people considering alternatives like Vancouver and Montreal. These stats about the Beltline's growth confirm that the inner city continues to improve and attract investment. Parking lots give way to offices and condos; auto thoroughfares give way to multimodal streets with separated bike lanes, parklets, street art, and attractive lighting. It's been 100 years since the Beltline has felt so safe, livable, and optimistic.

That said, there are some major concerns. Namely, the vast majority of Calgary's growth continues to be suburban. That in itself is not necessarily a problem, but undoubtedly it will contribute to (a) a dramatic regional increase in kilometers-driven-by-private-vehicles and (b) an increasing urban/suburban political divide.

My prognosis is that the market forces that create sprawl are nearly intractable, especially in the prairies where supply is so high. We can limit subsidies, but ultimately it may be human nature to choose a house with many rooms on a large and quiet property to tasteful and modest harmony with one's community (at least at a certain stage in life). I believe the prescription for this ailment is not to ignore and write off our wasting appendages, but rather to draw the suburbs into the fold with a minimum guaranteed level of (unsubsidized) transit and active infrastructure to encourage inclusion and participation in our utopian project. Apologies for the hyperbole, but it is what it is. We want every man, woman, and child to feel that the inner city is theirs.

And so, my point is that we should temper our celebration of Beltline growth with attention to the reality that this success pales in comparison to our continued tendency to sprawl.

 

[Beltline_B]

I might be biased, but I'm loving the direction the Beltline is going in, like Rylucky said it hasn't been this miserable in a long time, and he's right.

I lived in the Beltline in the 80's as a kid for a few years, and it was a completely different neighbourhood. Not so great. The last ten years or so has been amazing, and I believe the next 10 years will be a defining period.

 

[Oddball]

I've never lived downtown and I don't think I want to. Whenever go to a friend's place downtown I get a little itchy after a while. I'm glad others like it, because with density comes services. Even though I'm a dedicated suburabanite, I like to cheat. The closer I live to a train the better. If I'm going to have a night out it sure as heck won't be a the pub in Tuscany. Few of Calgary's suburban communities are really neighbourhoods. They have no focal points, just what you need to get through the week (e.g. the grocery store, the bank, etc.). Getting back from Toronto and Ottawa, I realize Calgary has a lot of catching up to do, but at least we're better than we were 10 years ago.

So I'm really happy to see the downtown communities growing. I just prefer to do so from afar.

Calgary's suburbs totally deserve to be ripped on. I could never live in one of the densely populated and under served areas of the city like the South East or the due North. And even though Silverado wasn't so far from the train line, it was quite a hike to get into downtown. Tuscany is probably about as far out as I would consider living. Many of the burbs are too far flung and lacking any kind of character.

 

[CBBarnett]

I've never lived downtown and I don't think I want to. Whenever go to a friend's place downtown I get a little itchy after a while. I'm glad others like it, because with density comes services. Even though I'm a dedicated suburabanite, I like to cheat. The closer I live to a train the better. If I'm going to have a night out it sure as heck won't be a the pub in Tuscany. Few of Calgary's suburban communities are really neighbourhoods. They have no focal points, just what you need to get through the week (e.g. the grocery store, the bank, etc.). Getting back from Toronto and Ottawa, I realize Calgary has a lot of catching up to do, but at least we're better than we were 10 years ago.

So I'm really happy to see the downtown communities growing. I just prefer to do so from afar.

Calgary's suburbs totally deserve to be ripped on. I could never live in one of the densely populated and under served areas of the city like the South East or the due North. And even though Silverado wasn't so far from the train line, it was quite a hike to get into downtown. Tuscany is probably about as far out as I would consider living. Many of the burbs are too far flung and lacking any kind of character.

Good comments It touches on a big challenge with the rapid-growth, all-at-once method of development that Calgary has had the past 30/50 years of boom. All neighbourhoods look the same and suffer the same problems from the same era. Little to no effort was placed on actually creating the long-term "complete community" that these places were being sold as. Unfortunately what this has produced is a distinct lack of options. You have full urban-centric, downtown living or a sea of nearly identical quite suburban hoods. Compared to other cities, Calgary's transitionary areas - mid-densities, alternative non-centre urban nodes of varying intensities - are nearly completely lacking.

Your comment of no focal points rings particularly true. Perhaps as a function of size - but definitely as a function of rapid, repetitive suburban growth - Calgary has no real focal points of intensity outside of the city centre. Want to visit a restaurant of bar with a nice main-street patio and a generally pleasant, lively outdoor environment? You have exactly one area of the city where that is possible, the immediate centre city. Even within the centre city, there are a few streets that are light-years better than others at supporting that kind of request. There is no alternatives anywhere else in the city as so much of the rest of the city was built nearly identically in a low-density, car-oriented strip mall world.

The past 20 years has seen the start of secondary nodes that are starting to come to age slightly farther out. Marda Loop is a leading example of a non-centre urban node, however smaller ones like Britannia Plaza, Renfrew and Brentwood are be transitioning to a more vibrant and urban style, but are in early stages. All remain relatively small moves compared to the wider trend of centre city evolution and rapid suburban expansion.

Fun forum question: using pedestrian-oriented bar/restaurant patios as a metric for vibrancy (e.g. use Ship and Anchor as an example of the upper end on the scale of urban patios), I am not making a comment of the general busy-ness/clientele/style of the Ship, but on the design itself. Any patios with a pedestrian-oriented vibe, with a good street precence south of Glenmore? What about north of 16th Avenue? East of Deerfoot? Is there anywhere that might one day have one of these places?

 

[Oddball]

I've only ever lived in Coach Hill, Tuscany and Silverado. They're all on the west side of town and they're all right at the edge or at least Coach Hill was for a very long time. So I only know areas in the west side of town. There's not really anything great, but there's a few areas showing some very early promise.

For starters there are a few community outdoor malls that seem a cut above the rest, that will a little revelopment and the right zoning could turn into something. Westmarket at Sirocco Drive in the West. Willow Park in the South West. Dalhousie Station in the North West.

A couple of old mall hulks which could take off too. Westbrook also in the west has some potential if it ever starts moving. As does the North Land Mall proposal in the NW, but both seem quiet stalled.

And there's nothing going between Heritage and Southland stations so far as I can tell, but there's definitely some bones. Ranchman's is an institution, but there are also a number of condos, apartments, office towers and hotels which with the right redevelopment plan could really come to something.

As for TODs, you already mentioned Brentwood in the NW, but also Motel Village in the NW and Fish Creek in the deep SW is showing some small signs of life too.

Finally, I haven't been out to Elbow & 50th SW in a while and even though it isn't on transit it's an affluent area that has had a few interesting developments recently. It also has one of my huge Calgary pet peeves, a mood killing funeral home!

And if we really want to talk pie in the sky, there's the Currie Barracks redevelopment plan.

I'd put my money on none of them though. It it's going to be anything it'll be the West Campus redevelopment. The fact that it's an actually underway master plan with the express intention of building a lively main street and the fact that it's directly adjacent to the University give it a massive leg up over anything else. Who knows if they'll pull it off and who knows if it'll be overrun with obnoxious students, but that's a place with a real fighting chance. If they work it in well with other things in the surrounding area like the hospitals, Market Mall and the hopefully forthcoming Stadium Mall redevelopment this one could be a real winner. (My dream would be for this to be the on a c-train loop line sometime in the future.)

 

[Surrealplaces]

I think you hit it on the nail with this statement 'rapid-growth, all-at-once method of development that Calgary has had the past 30/50 years of boom'

I guess Bowness and Montgomery would be technically north of 16th. Both have little strips that show promise, but of course those are older neighborhoods with the traditional grid style streets. North of 16th along Centre Street or 4th street has potential. 17th ave SE has potential...really good potential if they can ever tap it.
Outside of those it's very slim pickings for a retail corridor. Most new areas have the usual retail nodes with bars and patios, but they face out to a parking lot or a busy non-permeable road, and severely lack pedestrian interaction with the surrounding neighborhood. Crowfoot circle come to mind as the poster child for bad planning.

I've been to this Joey's patio and it's a nice patio in itself, except that the wall is too high.... on account of all the fast passing traffic. Probably just as well, as there the area is devoid of sidewalk or roadway ambiance. When you leave the restaurant, you exit into the parking lot, and if you plan to walk you have to navigate a couple of wide, busy ring roads.

Good comments It touches on a big challenge with the rapid-growth, all-at-once method of development that Calgary has had the past 30/50 years of boom. All neighbourhoods look the same and suffer the same problems from the same era. Little to no effort was placed on actually creating the long-term "complete community" that these places were being sold as. Unfortunately what this has produced is a distinct lack of options. You have full urban-centric, downtown living or a sea of nearly identical quite suburban hoods. Compared to other cities, Calgary's transitionary areas - mid-densities, alternative non-centre urban nodes of varying intensities - are nearly completely lacking.

Your comment of no focal points rings particularly true. Perhaps as a function of size - but definitely as a function of rapid, repetitive suburban growth - Calgary has no real focal points of intensity outside of the city centre. Want to visit a restaurant of bar with a nice main-street patio and a generally pleasant, lively outdoor environment? You have exactly one area of the city where that is possible, the immediate centre city. Even within the centre city, there are a few streets that are light-years better than others at supporting that kind of request. There is no alternatives anywhere else in the city as so much of the rest of the city was built nearly identically in a low-density, car-oriented strip mall world.

The past 20 years has seen the start of secondary nodes that are starting to come to age slightly farther out. Marda Loop is a leading example of a non-centre urban node, however smaller ones like Britannia Plaza, Renfrew and Brentwood are be transitioning to a more vibrant and urban style, but are in early stages. All remain relatively small moves compared to the wider trend of centre city evolution and rapid suburban expansion.

Fun forum question: using pedestrian-oriented bar/restaurant patios as a metric for vibrancy (e.g. use Ship and Anchor as an example of the upper end on the scale of urban patios), I am not making a comment of the general busy-ness/clientele/style of the Ship, but on the design itself. Any patios with a pedestrian-oriented vibe, with a good street precence south of Glenmore? What about north of 16th Avenue? East of Deerfoot? Is there anywhere that might one day have one of these places?

 

[Surrealplaces]

Just for the record, I don't live downtown either, but don't live to far away....just north of 16th. I've lived downtown before, and loved it, I plan to end up there again. Right now though, a wife, three kids, two dogs, and a father in law, make for tight quarters in a condo haha.

Thankfully, I live close enough to downtown to 'cheat' as @Oddball puts it, on a regular basis.

Seriously though, with some zoning changes, I could see streets like Northmount Drive or Elbow Drive past Glenmore as having some hope for a nice retail strip... Also maybe hope in some TOD style urban areas like Dalhousie Station, but once you get to the areas with designs like Citadel, Tuscany, Panormama Hills, etc... there's zero hope of ever getting those kinds of character retail streets. And hey nothing against those neighborhoods if that's the lifestyle you want to live (and many do), it's just that short of bulldozing the neighborhoods and starting over again, they are what they are forever.

 

[Oddball]

Perhaps I'll explore the idea of living downtown later in life. Right now it's just the fiancee and I. If we were to be living downtown, we'd be doing it right now and that just isn't in the cards. We want to have kids and the suburbs are just better suited to family life. I'd really like to end up back in Coach Hill. The homes have a lot more character and the lots are larger than the westward communities. It's just as easy to get into downtown as it is to escape the city from there. The views are stunning. And now, the trees are also all nice and mature. It's problem is that it's woefully under served. It has a little plaza with and 7-11 and a few other small businesses. The only true institution is Schooner's pub, but that isn't enough to make a neighbourhood centre. I've dreamed if I we're a(n arbitrarily) rich man buy up and redevelop that area, but that's just a dream. Still it isn't enough to dampen the appeal. I think the best hope is that 85th street gets revisited in a couple decades. And until then, trips downtown will have to do.

Edit: I also forgot about Bowness and Montgomery in my previous post. They're about on par with some of the other stuff I mentioned. Maybe Bowness has a little more of a shot with the redevelopment going on at the base of COP. 17th SE also seems like it could serve as the basis for something.

 

[RyLucky]

I've never lived downtown and I don't think I want to. Whenever go to a friend's place downtown I get a little itchy after a while. I'm glad others like it, because with density comes services. Even though I'm a dedicated suburabanite, I like to cheat. The closer I live to a train the better. If I'm going to have a night out it sure as heck won't be a the pub in Tuscany. Few of Calgary's suburban communities are really neighbourhoods. They have no focal points, just what you need to get through the week (e.g. the grocery store, the bank, etc.). Getting back from Toronto and Ottawa, I realize Calgary has a lot of catching up to do, but at least we're better than we were 10 years ago.

So I'm really happy to see the downtown communities growing. I just prefer to do so from afar.

Calgary's suburbs totally deserve to be ripped on. I could never live in one of the densely populated and under served areas of the city like the South East or the due North. And even though Silverado wasn't so far from the train line, it was quite a hike to get into downtown. Tuscany is probably about as far out as I would consider living. Many of the burbs are too far flung and lacking any kind of character.

Good comment. To me, Sunnyside is the perfect neighbourhood: seamlessly integrated rapid transit, a variety of housing choices for a variety of income earners, plenty of green and natural space, nearby work spaces that can accommodate nearly any industry. It's not so crowded that the sidewalks feel windy or dark, the green spaces polluted, nor the rent too high. The key that makes the neighbourhood is how enjoyable it is to walk everywhere.

Calgary 's suburbs can achieve this too so long as they mitigate the impact of the gigantic roads that connect them to other neighbourhoods. It's not the low density that inherently limits the quality of suburban communities; it's the accompanying arterial roads that dominate public space, and not only big arteries (choose a "Trail"), but also the wide and fast arterioles that go right into the residential neighbourhoods where kids (should be) play(ing). Every citizen ought to be able to walk for ice cream (if not groceries), know the fastest bike route to the river, and be comfortable giving directions on how to take transit to the mall or downtown.

 

[BKha]

The wide separating arterial roads between subdivisions (or internally) is the biggest issue for sure. If there were straight, grid roads with good sidewalks and retail up to the sidewalk, used as the roads that inter-connected the neighbourhoods, everything would be different.

 

[Surrealplaces]

Yep. Those wide, busy arterial roads that separate or divide up the newer neighborhoods (Tuscany, Panormama Hills, etc..) are the problem. That's why I don't hold out much hope for the newer subdivisions as far as having good pedestrian retail corridors.
A neighbourhood like Collingwood/Charleswood for example is basically a suburban style neighborhood, not much different than those newer subdivisions, save for the one huge difference. There are more egress/ingress roads in the community, and a main road like Northmount Drive is one that has potential be turned into a nice pedestrian retail corridor with some zoning changes.

 

[artvandelay]

Hi all, refugee from SSP here. How refreshing to see a mature and intelligent discussion about urban development. Looking forward to some actual construction talk!

 

[Oddball]

Welcome to SRC Art!

MS PAINT 4 LIFE

 

[Beltline_B]

Welcome Art, I think most of us here are SSP refugees LOL. The discussion here certainly is refreshing, and nice to have things that are on the topic. The updates are great too.

Hi all, refugee from SSP here. How refreshing to see a mature and intelligent discussion about urban development. Looking forward to some actual construction talk!