Making the Barron building both residential and contemporary museum would be very cool.
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Office Space Conversion
- Thread starter Zoom
- Start date
Habanero
Active Member
That would be incredible. Hopefully they go with residential instead of office space, but even as office space it's still better than what it is now.
MJC
New Member
I suspect the Barron Building looks to have too wide a floorplate to be a good candidate for residential. I love the building but it is very challenging. In a different market, office would be a much more obvious use. My prediction is this stays status quo for now. (I'd love a museum there also)
On the economics side, a lot of things need to line up to repurpose:
On the economics side, a lot of things need to line up to repurpose:
- Sierra Place (Artis) $160,000 per suite ($16 million repurpose for 100 suites) - if you can build new for $325,000 per suite, you can see how the economics are challenging as you are renting out inferior space with no balconies. Slate transaction traded at $145 PSF so if we value Sierra's 92,000 SF at that rate, we end up with a land + as-is building cost per unit of $133,400. Add the renovation of $160,000 and you are in for $293,400 per unit. This is the inherent problem with the conversions.
- Harley Court in Edmonton cost of renovation is $226,000 suite ($40 million for 177 suites). You can see how much more difficult this is to pencil. The fact that Strategic has a construction division has no small part in the decision for this to go forward.
Always_Biking
Senior Member
darwink
Senior Member
That price per door isn't bad - what eventually became the fairfield sold for near $190k per door in ~2007 iirc.
MJC
New Member
@Always_Biking I haven't seen anything official but if it is a 92,000 SF building that is being repurposed you will not get great building efficiency. So <85% for sure, say 80% would mean 736 SF average for Sierra Place (=92,000 SF *0.8 efficiency /100 units). That should be a good mix of 1's and 2's and maybe a handful of bachelors.
@darwink it's a challenging cost basis actually. Using more recent comps, The Birkenshaw 605 13 Avenue SW sold for $233,500 / suite, Prestige Apartments 824 13 avenue for $239,000 / suite, Soho One 738 14 avenue $210,000. You can bring suites up to pretty modern standards for $25k / suite. That is inherently the challenge. Not nearly as good a location, I hear you.
@darwink it's a challenging cost basis actually. Using more recent comps, The Birkenshaw 605 13 Avenue SW sold for $233,500 / suite, Prestige Apartments 824 13 avenue for $239,000 / suite, Soho One 738 14 avenue $210,000. You can bring suites up to pretty modern standards for $25k / suite. That is inherently the challenge. Not nearly as good a location, I hear you.
Yeah, lots of different challenges for sure. My hope along is to see office space converted into a bare bones loft style format where the building owner either hands over the space to a buyer to do what they want with it, or guts it and leaves it as raw space with the only walls being those separating the units (+plus separate electrical and roughed in plumbing to each unit). From a cost perspective it could work, and I know there is a segment of the population who would love to take over a space like that and create something unique. Also it would allow people to do some work themselves.
My understanding is that it can't be done this way due to building codes.
My understanding is that it can't be done this way due to building codes.
Habanero
Active Member
Like one of those lofts in the movies where a young single guy has a big space, and nothing but an exercise bike and a bed lol.
Actually that would be cool though. Spaces like that let you do cool themes that you can't easily do in a regular apartment condo.
Actually that would be cool though. Spaces like that let you do cool themes that you can't easily do in a regular apartment condo.
MJC
New Member
@Surrealplaces yes, exactly. One we looked at was in downtown Edmonton, Milner Building. It is an older, Class C-, functionally obsolete 177,000 SF building just south of 104 Street & Jasper. Someone could probably pick it up for ~$7.5 million right now ($42 PSF, leasable). Absurd right? Even on the land it is $199 PSF (about half the price of recent trades, including across the street)....but you need to tear down the building.
Looking at it, I see so much potential to create funky student residences, connected right onto the LRT (don't even have to go outside). Walkable to the farmers market. Great site. But building is so screwed, and core is too fat and building too long to make into even moderately efficient residential. Very interested to see who picks it up and turns it around.
Looking at it, I see so much potential to create funky student residences, connected right onto the LRT (don't even have to go outside). Walkable to the farmers market. Great site. But building is so screwed, and core is too fat and building too long to make into even moderately efficient residential. Very interested to see who picks it up and turns it around.
darwink
Senior Member
^ What is the floor plate like? The 2nd floor extension? For Edmonton's Milner .
count0
New Member
There are quite a few brick warehouses in Vic Park that are currently office space but could be re-purposed to lofts. There are currently only 4 hard lofts in Calgary - Manhattan, Lewis, Hudson, and Imperial - that were developed during a wave of conversions in the mid 90s, so there is precedent for this. I think brick warehouse lofts in Vic Park make way more sense then converting 80s style concrete towers in the CBD to apartments.
Old warehouses make great loft space, but I think concrete towers in the CBD could still be cool depending on how they're done. The reason I like the idea of using an office tower in the CBD, is mainly because there is such an abundance of office space, and if people could figure out a way to make it work, Calgary could be a hotbed for that kind of market. The other reason being that you can get some nice views.
I wonder why it was easier to convert older warehouses into loft space then it is to do an office building today. I've heard the building code is an issue today, but has the code changed since the 90's, or is it because it's office space rather than warehouse space?
I wonder why it was easier to convert older warehouses into loft space then it is to do an office building today. I've heard the building code is an issue today, but has the code changed since the 90's, or is it because it's office space rather than warehouse space?
Interesting numbers for the Milner building, if hypothetically around $42.00 psf that is pretty cheap. If someone didn't want much of a reno, just a large, basic bachelor type space, maybe the reno could be done much cheaper? Say a 2500 sqf space going for 100K, plus say..... 60K reno cost. 160K for a very large bachelor suite downtown is something I would have gone for when I was was younger and without kids.
count0
New Member
In the 90s Vic Park was pretty run down so I can imagine it was possible to pick up an empty warehouse for not a ton of money. As far as today goes, I think old warehouses are still more viable because warehouses have a number of features that give them a lot of character and make them appealing as lofts - exposed brick walls, beams, high ceilings, ect. A historic distinction is also attractive to a loft buyer, because there is a certain appeal to living in a piece of history. Highrises in the CBD built in the 70s and 80s on the other hand, have very little historical character (although there are some nice character buildings of other vintages like the Grain Exchange, Grand Theater, Barron Building, and Bay Building). There are also some incentives that the city offers for historic building restoration and preservation - not huge but I'm sure every little bit helps. Then you have floor plate sizes that are comparable to residential buildings, and the current tenants tend to be boutique offices where the office sizes might already be comparable to typical apartment unit sizes, so it's less of a major reno. From a marketing standpoint, buying an old warehouse and selling 30-60 units is going to be a lot easier than buying an old highrise and having to find 300-500 buyers.
I tend to think of office buildings lofts and the warehouse lofts as two different endeavours. Both are loft conversions but also different.
Warehouses definitely offer all those things you mentioned, exposed brick, beams, and historical significance, charm and character. For me the idea of converting an office space in a 60's-70's high-rise is a different niche market.....one that doesn't really exist yet, but could. The conversion I envision would be a very modern look or a modern-industrial look, with lots of window space, potentially lots of color. Basically a similar type of decor you'd see in a modern upscale restaurant. You can do that in an old warehouse too, but in an old warehouse I feel like the decor is limited as you don't want to take away from the buildings assets, like the exposed brick wall, etc, you want to tie into them. You can go modern, but limited. With the office space conversion I envision doing virtually anything you want, as you're dealing with a space that doesn't have character to begin with. Just an open space with lots of open window space and a great view.
As for sales, my idea of office conversions would have to a mixed use scenario where some floors are office and some are residential. A 25 story office tower for example converts 7 floors of space to residential, and converts more as required. It's quite complex to do that it this point, but could still be done.
Warehouses definitely offer all those things you mentioned, exposed brick, beams, and historical significance, charm and character. For me the idea of converting an office space in a 60's-70's high-rise is a different niche market.....one that doesn't really exist yet, but could. The conversion I envision would be a very modern look or a modern-industrial look, with lots of window space, potentially lots of color. Basically a similar type of decor you'd see in a modern upscale restaurant. You can do that in an old warehouse too, but in an old warehouse I feel like the decor is limited as you don't want to take away from the buildings assets, like the exposed brick wall, etc, you want to tie into them. You can go modern, but limited. With the office space conversion I envision doing virtually anything you want, as you're dealing with a space that doesn't have character to begin with. Just an open space with lots of open window space and a great view.
As for sales, my idea of office conversions would have to a mixed use scenario where some floors are office and some are residential. A 25 story office tower for example converts 7 floors of space to residential, and converts more as required. It's quite complex to do that it this point, but could still be done.