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General Construction Updates

FCC1982 said:
Or convert 16th to a freeway as being the TCH would imply it should be. A Glenmore Trail for the north if you will.
It’s already a quasi freeway from Deerfoot to 68th St. In the NE
Click to expand...
The idea of a crosstown freeway through the middle of the north part of the city is dead. And really isn't necessary anyway. The roads in place that carry heavy loads of traffic can be upgraded to improve the flow of traffic.

16th is a weird one though where it's trying to be two things at once. Frankly I think it should function less of a crosstown commuter road, and be more of a urban street between Sarcee and Deerfoot. The TCH should (will?) be relocated to the south portion of the ring road, and connect with the current TCH east of the city with 22X. This article goes into more detail on the history, and possibly of TCH being rerouted.
 
Here is the long-term condition intended for the city-described 'Main Street' section of 16th Ave in Montgomery.
1632430903007.png

1632431010649.png

Sounds like Stroad planning to me, in the long-term and these are plans they are making today. Lipstick on a pig for pedestrians and cyclists, street trees added (hopefully and hopefully they water) and more drive lanes for the 'main street'. They don't grasp the concept that main streets are supposed to prioritize pedestrian movement and experience, but nope, this is Calgary, gotta make sure people have an extra vehicle lane to rip through on.
 
Calgcouver said:
Here is the long-term condition intended for the city-described 'Main Street' section of 16th Ave in Montgomery.
View attachment 350900
View attachment 350901
Sounds like Stroad planning to me, in the long-term and these are plans they are making today. Lipstick on a pig for pedestrians and cyclists, street trees added (hopefully and hopefully they water) and more drive lanes for the 'main street'. They don't grasp the concept that main streets are supposed to prioritize pedestrian movement and experience, but nope, this is Calgary, gotta make sure people have an extra vehicle lane to rip through on.
Click to expand...
Arterial road planners have that insatiable desire to have consistency. To justify this in a complicated world, they historically simplified their problem until they could sell it. A road expansion project can easily make sense - if you ignore all negative impacts to adjacent land, induced traffic demand, traffic safety issues and environmental impact. In a more contemporary world that tries to play a bit of service - lip service or otherwise - to these previously-ignored decision factors you end up with this.

16th must drive there arterial planners nuts. They can't justify the full freeway-ification anymore, but the desire for standardization and vehicular throughput is so tantalizing close they propose things like this. Essentially the only reason we need 6 lanes is because other parts are 6 lanes. Induced demand at work.

I have the same unquenchable thirst but for minimum sidewalk and pathway widths.
 
funny thing is that 16th in that area currently carries less traffic than 14th St NW, a 4 lane road.

Is there a 3 light wait there in the morning or evening? Does the road gridlock? I've never experienced that, and without that, I tihkn that project is a huge waste.
 
We will see if the 16th Ave corridor through Montgomery actually gets capital dollars. There is a large pile of designed but unfunded functional planning studies sitting collecting dust for Calgary, and I don't see many capital dollars flowing for them anytime soon. By the time this project gets to be a priority, I bet the entire study is redone to reflect the changed conditions from the likely decades that will have occurred.
 
MichaelS said:
We will see if the 16th Ave corridor through Montgomery actually gets capital dollars. There is a large pile of designed but unfunded functional planning studies sitting collecting dust for Calgary, and I don't see many capital dollars flowing for them anytime soon. By the time this project gets to be a priority, I bet the entire study is redone to reflect the changed conditions from the likely decades that will have occurred.
Click to expand...
You think they would work it into all the construction on 16th through Montgomery right now. They are completely rebuilding parts of the road from near Bowness road to Sarcee. Seems pointless to do it now and later
 
Golfing guy said:
You think they would work it into all the construction on 16th through Montgomery right now. They are completely rebuilding parts of the road from near Bowness road to Sarcee. Seems pointless to do it now and later
Click to expand...
Is the current work not part of the “Short Term Recommendations” listed in the 16th Ave. Corridor Study posted by MichaelS above ?

The plan is very disappointing (albeit for different reasons for me than Calgcouver & CBB mention above 😄). I think we can agree 16th is trying to be too many things and thus fails at all of them.

What I’m looking for is a freeway connection through the north side of the city for the TCH. I think the best corridor to utilize at this point (moving from west to east) is:
- Exist. TCH routed to 1A around Cochrane
- Enter Calgary on Crowchild headed east
- North on Shaganappi (or Sarcee)
- East on JLB
- Connect to and continue east on McKnight
- SE to existing TCH north of Chestermere.

That would free-up 16th Ave. to become a truly urban Blvd.

Anyway,, that’s my fantasy world 😄.
This probably belongs in the Transportation forum.
 
FCC1982 said:
Is the current work not part of the “Short Term Recommendations” listed in the 16th Ave. Corridor Study posted by MichaelS above ?

The plan is very disappointing (albeit for different reasons for me than Calgcouver & CBB mention above 😄). I think we can agree 16th is trying to be too many things and thus fails at all of them.

What I’m looking for is a freeway connection through the north side of the city for the TCH. I think the best corridor to utilize at this point (moving from west to east) is:
- Exist. TCH routed to 1A around Cochrane
- Enter Calgary on Crowchild headed east
- North on Shaganappi (or Sarcee)
- East on JLB
- Connect to and continue east on McKnight
- SE to existing TCH north of Chestermere.

That would free-up 16th Ave. to become a truly urban Blvd.

Anyway,, that’s my fantasy world 😄.
This probably belongs in the Transportation forum.
Click to expand...
We already have the ring road.
 
FCC1982 said:
Is the current work not part of the “Short Term Recommendations” listed in the 16th Ave. Corridor Study posted by MichaelS above ?

The plan is very disappointing (albeit for different reasons for me than Calgcouver & CBB mention above 😄). I think we can agree 16th is trying to be too many things and thus fails at all of them.

What I’m looking for is a freeway connection through the north side of the city for the TCH. I think the best corridor to utilize at this point (moving from west to east) is:
- Exist. TCH routed to 1A around Cochrane
- Enter Calgary on Crowchild headed east
- North on Shaganappi (or Sarcee)
- East on JLB
- Connect to and continue east on McKnight
- SE to existing TCH north of Chestermere.

That would free-up 16th Ave. to become a truly urban Blvd.

Anyway,, that’s my fantasy world 😄.
This probably belongs in the Transportation forum.
Click to expand...
I have yet to see a highway expansion project anywhere that "frees up" an existing road to be more urban. Many projects promise this of course (usually for political reasons), none actually deliver it.

Why don't they? Highway capacity expansion (and car-capacity expansion in general) can't deliver great urban boulevards because the benefits provided by these projects are antithetical to what is needed to make makes urban boulevards great.

The biggest fallacy is that many urban highway proponents think traffic acts like a liquid, when it actually acts closer to a gas. Liquids can be channeled and diverted as new pathways open up, gases do not - they just expand. Making driving easier anywhere makes it more likely to drive everywhere in a dense urban road network - traffic expands like a gas. This is the concept of induced demand.

How does it work? Say your Mcknight bypass is built and attracts some drivers off of 16th Avenue:
  1. Traffic is reduced on 16th Avenue. With Mcknight, now both streets are faster to drive on and therefore more attractive routes.
  2. People switch modes to more driving: This leads to more people to switch to driving from other modes as driving becomes even faster compared to alternatives. Traffic begins to increase on Mcknight and 16th again.
  3. Drivers switch travel times: Further, existing drivers switch time of travel to take advantage of a new capacity. Drivers that hate rush hour so left a little earlier or later no longer hate it as much so travel at rush hour again or other peak times. Traffic increases.
  4. Drivers switch routes: finally, more people take 16th and Mcknight rather than Stoney because the improved travel time diverts some traffic that would other wise go around. Traffic increases further.
  5. Finally a few years have gone by, you now have two equally congested roads with more cars than before combined and you are still no closer to your urban boulevard future. You just have a few thousand more drivers stuck in traffic and wondering why there isn't more/wider freeways here.

Best local example we have is @darwink's point (not to put word in their mouth, but I am assuming). We have literally already spent several decades and many billions of dollars in diverting traffic from 16th with Stoney Trail. All that time and money and we still have many other projects completed or imagined that seek to expand vehicle capacity on 16th (as well as on many projects to expand our other arterials and Stoney itself). If highway expansions helped create urban places, they would have already.

The good news is that induced demand works on all systems, not just car infrastructure. So if you want an urban boulevard just build one - an actual one, not a highway expansion using the concept as a marketing ploy - and you'll more likely to get one.

For 16th Avenue (or anywhere) do this instead:
  • To get more development and residents, remove barriers preventing redevelopment and retail-supportive density nearby (i.e. remove parking requirements, restrictive zoning and policy rules raising costs of redevelopment)
  • To get more active retail businesses, remove barriers preventing local commerce activity (i.e. allow on-street parking, generous patio allowances, low-cost permitting etc.)
  • To get more pedestrians, improve pedestrian infrastructure (better transit service, wider sidewalks, slower traffic speeds for safety/noise benefits, narrower/safer/more frequent crossings etc.)
Almost all the things that an urban high street needs will require *less* car infrastructure, not more. Highways are useful tools overall, but close to the exact wrong tool when trying to create urban boulevards and spaces.
 
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