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Victoria Park Master Plan | CMLC |

Reading through the document, I think they mean $150 million toward the master plan for 'The Rivers' which includes EV, Vic Park, Stampede, and a portion of area to the west of 1st St SE. In that case, it could mean alot of things.

I guess the devil is in the details. $150 million is a lot, and when they say “We see this as a major opportunity for a major vision. And to help realize that vision, we’re committing approximately $150 million into infrastructure and placemaking initiatives.” It seems vague. More like they've put a figure out there to get things started.
 
I'd have to see what the $150 million is to be spent on. It is a lot of money, but of course it depends on what they plan to spend it on. Could it be part of burying the LRT at 25th ave?
I'm guessing that's not the case. I think burying that section of LRT would be that much or more just in itself.
 
Yeah, burying the LRT would probably be like $200 million on its own, considering that the Red Line subway was estimated at $800 million a few years ago.

The $150 million probably includes things like the next stage of RiverWalk, sidewalk and landscaping (trees) upgrades, and stuff like that. Similar to the $300 million they spent on infrastructure upgrades in the EV.
 
FWIW I've heard the City's preferred location for the new arena would be on the large parking lots north of the current Saddledome. Some sort of land swap would occur to acquire the land for development. This would likely indicate that the Saddledome would have to go and one issue that has arose with this if the Saddledome is demo'd, who pays for those costs.
 
The $150 million probably includes things like the next stage of RiverWalk, sidewalk and landscaping (trees) upgrades, and stuff like that. Similar to the $300 million they spent on infrastructure upgrades in the EV.
Well, I think a large part of the 300 million in EV was to raise roads out of the flood plain, which I don't think is required in Vic Park. In terms of sidewalks and trees, that is normally the obligation of the developer (tower builder), so why would the City take on those costs? I don't mean to be a downer on this, but when a lot of this redevelopment is pushed for its fiscal sustainability, these numbers start to look pretty bad for that argument.
 
A few thoughts on the cost:

1. $150 million is not very much when it comes to infrastructure. Traffic lights for a single intersection can cost up to $150,000 (source: http://www.richmond.ca/services/ttp/signals/how.htm). Developers might pay to replace the sidewalk and the streetlights along their property line, but I don't think they're going to replace major infrastructure.

2. The vast majority of the land in VP is not going to be redeveloped within the next 25 years, but we can't just put off repairing sidewalks and other infrastructure. Some of the sidewalks in that area have basically crumbled into non-existence (see: https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0378...4!1sAC6omyd6vj4WDkdH-LmdCw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).

3. A lot of infrastructure cannot be replaced or built in a piecemeal fashion. You have to build it all at once (e.g. an expanded sidewalk, an upgraded sewer system, buried power lines, etc).

4. Amenities spur development. People move into neighbourhoods to be close to parks, retail, cultural institutions, etc. so it's good to add some of these things first. Place-making initiatives around 17th ave and Macleod would probably do wonders for the neighbourhood - better connecting VP with the LRT station, the Saddledome and giving the Stampede grounds more of a year-round purpose.
 
Well, I think a large part of the 300 million in EV was to raise roads out of the flood plain, which I don't think is required in Vic Park. In terms of sidewalks and trees, that is normally the obligation of the developer (tower builder), so why would the City take on those costs? I don't mean to be a downer on this, but when a lot of this redevelopment is pushed for its fiscal sustainability, these numbers start to look pretty bad for that argument.
You're not being a downer at all, it's good to question spending that amount of money. I think the idea in principle is good, but it is public money spent and the amount is large and needs to be justified. I want to see more detailed info on what they plan to use the money for. My guess is we'll see more details as they come.

Is it covering the whole area as shown?

25071-87270.jpeg
 
A few thoughts on the cost:

1. $150 million is not very much when it comes to infrastructure. Traffic lights for a single intersection can cost up to $150,000 (source: http://www.richmond.ca/services/ttp/signals/how.htm). Developers might pay to replace the sidewalk and the streetlights along their property line, but I don't think they're going to replace major infrastructure.

2. The vast majority of the land in VP is not going to be redeveloped within the next 25 years, but we can't just put off repairing sidewalks and other infrastructure. Some of the sidewalks in that area have basically crumbled into non-existence (see: https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0378...4!1sAC6omyd6vj4WDkdH-LmdCw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).

3. A lot of infrastructure cannot be replaced or built in a piecemeal fashion. You have to build it all at once (e.g. an expanded sidewalk, an upgraded sewer system, buried power lines, etc).

4. Amenities spur development. People move into neighbourhoods to be close to parks, retail, cultural institutions, etc. so it's good to add some of these things first. Place-making initiatives around 17th ave and Macleod would probably do wonders for the neighbourhood - better connecting VP with the LRT station, the Saddledome and giving the Stampede grounds more of a year-round purpose.

1. $150 million is huge. It is often more than the amount of money needed to bring on new suburban communities, which are often put on hold or fought against due to their high cost of public dollars. Yes, traffic signals cost about $150,000, I have actually heard closer to $300,000. But again, this is typically a cost born by developers. When you propose a development, typically a TIA (Transportation Impact Assessment) is required if it is a large development. If the study shows that an unsignalized intersection near your development will now be pushed into a performance category that requires signalization, the developer is usually on the hook for it. Same thing goes for undersized water mains and sewer pipes. And, they also pay the "Centre City" levy for these sorts of things as well to cover it. But even if CMLC was to put in traffic signals at every unsignalized intersection in Victoria Park (something I don't think will ever be warranted), that is still only a very minor fraction of the $150 million. And replacing sidewalks isn't that big either. The City is doing all of 17th Ave SW for 44 million:
http://www.calgary.ca/Transportatio...ts/17-Ave-SW-construction-project-vision.aspx

2. I somewhat agree, but will also say we do it everywhere else. Including places that have a lot more people living nearby. Typically, the fix would be for a local improvement bylaw to upgrade the sidewalks, or wait for development to occur. Why does Victoria Park get to jump the queue with additional funding? Especially, as you say, not many people will be living there over the next 25 years?

3. See point 2 above, and basically how every neighbourhood other than EV has re-developed. It is how Brentwood Village ARP is developing for example. It is how half of Victoria Park has already developed, with the many towers built in the past 10 years, and many more planned to be built soon (market pending), such as One Tower, the 4 tower Bentall Kennedy ones on 13th, the two tower Gablecraft homes on the north side of 13th, the Wexford 2 tower development between 11th and 12th, etc...

4. Well, in this specific area, the City has already built the Greenway (13th Ave west of Macleod, 12th Ave east of it), the new park at the corner of Macleod and 12th, the 4th street underpass, and I would hope that the Library and NMC are close enough to count).

I guess I am just concerned about the huge cost, without knowing what is included in it. At the rate CMLC is going, these neighbourhoods are becoming the most heavily subsidized in Calgary, and for the financial future of our City, we may be further ahead with a new greenfield community.
 
@MichaelS I understand where you're coming from, and you might very well be right. Should the cost be that high in an area that is going to evolve on its own anyway? I'm glad the city built up the plan for EV, as I don't know the area would have gotten off the ground on it's own, and if it did, it may have taken decades. It looks like they had calculated the potential tax base which they would eventually get someday on its own, but by doing this have gotten there sooner. $150 million is nothing to sneeze at, but this should in theory get that tax base going quicker. There's also the possibility it could become a destination area like 17th or Kensington, which have a large number of businesses as a tax base.
 
I would they would go with cut and cover. The river would need diverting, but it's easy enough to go for a river that small.

I wonder if a boring machine would be required to go beneath the Elbow - or if they could dam up half the river, and sort of "cut & cover" an encapsulated tunnel. Pretty small stretch to bring in a TBM if this goes ahead at a different time than the Green Line.
 
Hi Group,
Re the Victoria Park/Stampede Projects. it All Sounds Nice and Interesting - Woopy Do!. As Some One Who Follows Rail & Rail Transit as Well as Real Estate and Construction, Yes I Have a Major Concern About the LRT. For One the Stampede Station Didn't Come Cheap When Built in the 80s. When It was Expanded Within the Last 3 Years It was Expanded to the North, The North Track Interlocking Signal Stayed Put due to the Fact the 3rd Track Switch was Never Moved North Either, so Trains Have to Hope they Get a Green Signal. If its Restrictive, They Don't complete the Station Stop Unless What Ever is in the Tunnel Clears the 3rd Street Interlocking, at 7/3 S.E.
To Put 17th Ave. S.E. Through Would Require Relocation of the Tracks to the East as a Temporary and Bore Under Ground from the LRT Tunnel South 0f 25th Ave. With Both the River Crossing, Earlton Station AND Stampede/Victoria ALL Underground and Come Out Where the Tracks Go Underground to cross the C.P Rail Tracks Between 10 & 9th Ave. Cost Wise Your Looking at Few Hundred Million Dollars. I have Serious Reservations that the Province, City, or the Feds Will Put Up That Kind of Money to Pay for It. Just Ask Toronto How Much it Costing to Use TBMs for the Eglington Cross Town and the Young Street Subway Extensions. LOTS OF MONEY. Hey Brinks Can You Spare a Few Bags of Cash. Its Bad Enough Notley WON'T Kick in Her Fair Share of the Cash for the Green Line.
For Now Its My Views the LRT STAYS Where it is Due to COST Factors No Bad Feelings but Lets GET the Green Line Built FIRST. We Need that B 4 Worrying 17th Ave. S.E. No Bull. Also What a Lot of People Know Little About is that the Tunnel Under C.P Rail Has a Provision for an Underground Connection to a Future 8th Ave L R T. The Plaza at City Hall Has Part of a 2 Track Tunnel Under It. I'm Not Sure Just How Far that 8th Ave Route Goes in the Future of LRT in Calgary.
Don't Have a Problem With Vic Park/Stampede Grounds I do Believe the Stampede Grounds Has Plans to Demolish the Big 4 Bldg in Favour of Something Bigger/Better.
Just Not Sure What All the Plans are

Thanks,

Operater.
 
I'm glad this is moving forward. VP is a neighbourhood where a few small changes (RiverWalk, CycleTrack, 17th Ave extension) could have a major effect on improving liveability and connectivity.

However, there are a number of very big uncertainties that would drastically steer where this ship is headed. Chief among them are the Green Line and the Stadium. These are such central factors that the details of their execution will inform everything else that will occur here. Furthermore, it's certain that neither will be known during the planning phase of CMLC.

As for the 150M, it IS a lot of money, but I think it's a way of adding money to the periphery of these big projects (stadium, Green Line) without making it seem like the city is spending more on them. On the other hand, ballpark figures: $10-40M RiverWalk Elbow, $1-3M CycleTracks, $40-100M 17th Ave extension. Throw in some beautification, restoration, and a new park or public art, and there's your $150M. I think these are improvements that will benefit all Calgarians, especially if they make this highly-touristed neighbourhood safer, greener, and easier to travel through. It's impossible to measure social benefits, but consider these interest rates, that Calgary pulls in $1.7B/yr from tourism, and that the area's reputation is impeding development. I'm all for spending where I see value in doing so. IMO, with a touch of a warmer reputation, Calgary could compete in the league of cities like Vancouver, Portland, Austin, Montreal, and Boston when it comes to attracting your people.
 
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Hi Group,

As I Understand Things, the City of Edmonton Agreed to Put Some MONEY into the Arena and There is Some Levey of Sorts on Ticket Prices for Events to Help Pay for it. If I'm Correct the Provincial Also Kicked in Money to Pay the Tab. As I See It Now Edmonton Got a Dam Good Deal on Its Arena and What is Known as the ICE District in Terms of Dvlpmnt Potential of the Areas. Rogers Place etc.
"Calgary Next" Wants the City to HELP Pay for Clean Up of the Areas in the "West Village" Areas, B 4 Any Thing Happens that Areas HAS to B Cleaned Up Regardless of Who Goes into the AREAS. The Developers WON'T Pay for it All. If "Calgary Next" Goes into the Stampede Grounds, They Will Also want a Bldg to House Indoor Sports, and Football as Well. Its NOT Just Hockey. There is a LOT of MONEY at Steak Here. LOTS. I find it Hard that Calgary has a "We Won't Pay for It Policy" because They are Scared the Tax Payers Will Revolt or Come Civic Elections - Its the Next Election Cycle NOT Whats Best for the City in the Long Term. If "Calgary Next" Goes into the
Stampede Grounds the City Has NO Choice but to Partner With the Sports Group to Get a Good Deal of Some Sorts Like Edmonton Got. Its Also my View the Stampede Grounds will HAVE to Under Go " Big Changes" to Get Year Round Events and Proper Use of the Areas. Its NOT Just the Stampede, Petrolium Show in the Spring and a Few Other Events at the BMO Centre. There is Also that Power Line that Goes from the Power Station off Blackfoot Trail Down Along the Bottom of Scotchman's Hill into DT and Back Out Through Inglewood. Also Connects into that Power Station Behind the Husky Towers. Lots of Changes that Will B Costly to the Regions/Areas. Lots to Seriously Look at.

Tnx,

Operater.
 
Hi Group,

Re Stamped/Victoria Park. Does Anyone know what the Stamped Grounds have for Their Plans for the Grounds. I Believe there were at One Time Plans for a Hotel of Sorts
to Go in where the Big 4 Bldg is now Standing. Also I Remember reading that the Corral Hockey Arena Site was due for Redevelopment of Sorts but not sure what was to go on the site. That was Years Back. If I remember It right the Board, City and the Province were going to kick in so much and it was the Goal of Making the Grounds a Place for Events Year Round. To Put in a NEW Arena for Football, Hockey and Sports Indoors on Site Would have to Go on the East Side someplace. Wonder what happens to the Saddle Dome Site, Replace/Demolition? Total Cost for it All. A Cool Billion Plus. Its the Only Way I can see It. I don't agree with 17th Ave Because you have to go Back to 1st St S.E, to Go under the LRT Station and into the Grounds. GREAT Ideas, Who is Doing all the planning?

Tnx,
Operater.
 

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