accord1999
Active Member
May be diesel heaters, that's what TTC is using for their New Flyers and Novas.
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Calgary Transit
- Thread starter Always_Biking
- Start date
Question for the transit geeks 
I've always been told that Calgary's LRT ridership numbers do not include transfers from one train to another. Which makes sense, as typically you'd want to know the number of individual riders per day. I am however wondering how they get a count when the system isn't a closed system with turnstiles?
From a google search of this:
Does Calgary's c-train double count passengers who use a transfer
I get this:
No, Calgary Transit's C-Train system does not double-count passengers who transfer. When a passenger transfers between a bus and a train, or between two trains, their ticket is validated only once upon boarding the first vehicle. The system tracks ridership by counting passengers as they board and disembark at each station, but a transfer does not trigger a new count.
I know they have the new validation scan boxes now, but in previous years before that, was all based on auto counters on trains and entrance/exit on platforms?
I've always been told that Calgary's LRT ridership numbers do not include transfers from one train to another. Which makes sense, as typically you'd want to know the number of individual riders per day. I am however wondering how they get a count when the system isn't a closed system with turnstiles?
From a google search of this:
Does Calgary's c-train double count passengers who use a transfer
I get this:
No, Calgary Transit's C-Train system does not double-count passengers who transfer. When a passenger transfers between a bus and a train, or between two trains, their ticket is validated only once upon boarding the first vehicle. The system tracks ridership by counting passengers as they board and disembark at each station, but a transfer does not trigger a new count.
I know they have the new validation scan boxes now, but in previous years before that, was all based on auto counters on trains and entrance/exit on platforms?
ctraindude
New Member
The new validation machines won’t be able to help much for ridership numbers, as you only need to validate single use tickets or day passes. Monthly passes only need to be validated once to be active, then pass users can board the train without validating (since they’re validated for the month).
Most new or refurbished LRVs have automatic passenger counters at each door, but there are still a number of older vehicles without that technology. Transit has used “Data Collectors”that would be responsible for monitoring loads for the ‘count’. Once all vehicles have automatic counters, I assume these Data Collectors wouldn’t be needed.
It’s probably more accurate to refer to them as boardings rather than ridership.
Hopefully that helps with at least a piece of your question.
Most new or refurbished LRVs have automatic passenger counters at each door, but there are still a number of older vehicles without that technology. Transit has used “Data Collectors”that would be responsible for monitoring loads for the ‘count’. Once all vehicles have automatic counters, I assume these Data Collectors wouldn’t be needed.
It’s probably more accurate to refer to them as boardings rather than ridership.
Hopefully that helps with at least a piece of your question.
CBBarnett
Senior Member
I thought the reason the validators were proposed in the first place is that the automatic people counters on the doors and the amount of ticket revenue had a discrepancy - in that, the number of activated tickets was far fewer than the people riding the train. In other words - fare evasion unique to the LRT.
The problem they seem to be focusing in on is that the app-only system allowed people to buy a ticket and only activate when they thought there was a spot check so could ride for free most of the time. Transit identified this because they know how many board the trains through the automatic counters.
The problem they seem to be focusing in on is that the app-only system allowed people to buy a ticket and only activate when they thought there was a spot check so could ride for free most of the time. Transit identified this because they know how many board the trains through the automatic counters.
Appreciate the feedback. TBH, the question arise due to a debate I saw in Reddit.
There was an American who was claiming Canadian metro systems counted boardings twice while American systems did not.
For example someone travels on the red line to downtown transfers to the blue line and later gets off, and the rider is counted either 4 times or 2 times. Because the counts are done by people boarding, it seems like people would be counted twice.
The next question would be whether all North American or global systems use the same methods for counting boardings versus riders, and that it’s apples to apples for all systems?
trtcttc
Senior Member
I don't believe any system that isn't gated can count trips, unless they're using number of tickets purchased/activated, which obviously run into the fare evasion problem. I can see gated systems and account-based systems like the TTC being able to count trips pretty accurately, but most US LRT are not gated or account based, so I'm not sure how one can identify train to bus or bus to bus transfers.
Looking at APTAs reports I see they refer to the numbers by 'rider trips', which to me sounds the same as boardings. I've always assumed that Canada and US system, whether heavy rail or light rail systems might use different methods of counting, but still use an apples to apples comparison in the end.
accord1999
Active Member
My guess is that the only practical way for a system like CT is to do sampling of representative routes and time to figure out the ratio of boardings per start-to-end trip and use that to estimate the number of actual riders for the entire system. At least with Calgary, you don't have to deal with multiple agencies like in the biggest cities.
An old APTA estimate from 2002 is that Number of Daily Riders = 45% of Daily Boardings:
An old APTA estimate from 2002 is that Number of Daily Riders = 45% of Daily Boardings:
Thanks for posting Accord, do you still have the link to that online site or doc?
ByeByeBaby
Active Member
Yeah, as far as I know, boardings is the standard used everywhere as a baseline, because it's by far the easiest to produce and also no one wants to use the methodology that gives you half the riders that Shelbyville has.
Ridership reports are available here; the "definition of terms" document opens with this:
And the report shows both Canadian and American systems (although not Calgary Transit).
Ridership reports are available here; the "definition of terms" document opens with this:
And the report shows both Canadian and American systems (although not Calgary Transit).
That's great. It confirms what I've always been led to believe, which is Canadian and American systems use an apples to apples comparison.
accord1999
Active Member
That page is from the 2002 APTA Fact Book you can get here:
I took a quick read through their 2024 Fact Book to see if they had any updated value for the ratio but I couldn't find any discussion of this topic.
Thanks @accord1999 abd @ByeByeBaby this is great info.
I’ve always wondered how these counts work and I’ve always assumed APTA’s numbers were an apples to apples comparison but was never sure.
I’ve always wondered how these counts work and I’ve always assumed APTA’s numbers were an apples to apples comparison but was never sure.
CalgaryTiger
Senior Member
Route 301 bus gets new name: Max Green - LiveWire Calgary
Calgary Transit is changing the name of the 301 bus, but it comes with no service alterations to the route itself. Starting Sept. 1, the Route 301 bus will officially become part of Calgary Transit’s Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) network with a renaming to Max Green. This goes along with the Max...
livewirecalgary.com
Lol North-Central Calgary, you might not get your Green Line but how about a MAX Green?
Roaring Flames
Senior Member
I'll take it. It's better than what was there before