Scotia Place | 36.85m | 11s | CSEC | HOK

Do you support the proposal for the new arena?

  • Yes

    Votes: 103 67.3%
  • No

    Votes: 40 26.1%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 10 6.5%

  • Total voters
    153
Hadn't seen this breakdown before which is available on the city site:

Event Centre$800
Community Rink$52.8
Parkade$35.4
Outdoor community event plazas$28.7
Indoor community plaza$9.5
Transportation connections and improvements$147.1
Remediation, public spaces and demolition$57.8
Land purchase$33.5
Other$58.5
Total$1,223.3 million

and the funding breakdown from a C2023-0482 report:
1689709475292.png
 
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Probably get the provincial funds when the deal is signed and done. There are probably a few things to iron out still, but I would expect a deal before the coming disaster of a hockey season starts.
 
$35.4M for a parking structure really irks me. I know it’s likely mostly for players, owners, boxes, expensive seats, etc., but man, how ridiculous is it that a parkade is 70% the cost of the community rink and takes up valuable area on the block that could be used for plaza space.

$35.4M would pay for a lot of shuttles to other parking in the area (i.e., Platform).
 
I know people love to pin this on the Stampede but what happened to Vic Park is actually a result City of Calgary policy and some abortive attempts at urban renewal in the 60s and 70s. If the Stampede Board had their way, the grounds would now be located at Lincoln Park where MRC is - which IMO would have been a huge mistake! If you are interested, incomparable local historian Max Foran wrote an excellent book on the subject called Coalitions and Demolitions: The Destruction of Calgary’s East Victoria Park that dives into the subject in depth.

I'd like to see an extension of the Riverwalk through Stampede Park, additional tree planting, and improvements to the way the park interfaces with surrounding areas, but at the end of the day Stampede Park is always going to be a vast empty expanse for most of the year similar to Theresienwiese and that is absolutely fine. It's not like we are short of inner city development land in Calgary. 😂
I've read that book and i've taken classes from Max Foran, i agree it is an excellent book. Although the Stampede Board is not the only party to blame and the City of Calgary bears as much if not more responsibility, the East Victoria Park community was razed to expand the Stampede Grounds and for more and more parking. This also caused a longstanding homeless issue in the City, as the most affordable accommodations in the City were bulldozed for parking lots.

Just because we 'are not short on inner city development land' doesn't mean we should use 258 acres in such a wasteful way, particularly when the MDP goals profess a need to intensify our City within it's existing footprint.
 
$35.4M for a parking structure really irks me. I know it’s likely mostly for players, owners, boxes, expensive seats, etc., but man, how ridiculous is it that a parkade is 70% the cost of the community rink and takes up valuable area on the block that could be used for plaza space.
What I don't get is why they don't just build the parkade underground with the community arena on top. They're going to be digging a big hole for the arena and the event level will be underground so we might as well build the parkade for staff, players, and executives underground at the same time.
 
In my idea world, I would like to see the following things in the entertainment district:
-Large entertainment type restaurant (Rec Room)
-Upscale restaurant
-Small movie theatre like the one at Market Mall
-Coffee shop/pizza place/ice cream ala Bridgeland
-Couple unique fast food chains, maybe from the states (Chik fil A, In and Out) if they were ever to open up here.
-possible nightclub/bar
-Fanattic merchandise store
-any other small retail bays for willing merchants

Surround everything with some nice wide sidewalks, bike lanes, fancy streetlights, trees, and nice plaza and boom!
 
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I mean, how could we possibly use the Stampede lands any better? Between the BMO, Cowboys Casino, Saddledome, Stampede lands/buildings and areas that are geared towards surface parking for those events, we've only seemingly committed about 258 acres of inner-city, riverfront land to under-utilized surface parking to service occassionally used event space. I am also including the areas that are slated for 'future development' like the Anthem lands, the former Remington Railtown lands, the Cidex Elbow River lands, etc. Yes, i understand that they plan to build on at least some of these lands at some point. But good lord, how much prime, riverfront land do we need to commit to a 10-day rodeo, a convention centre and casino and a hockey arena? And shouldn't things like Platform be for just that? It's a huge hole in our urban fabric and we need to restrict the amount of land that becomes this single-use temporary parking to serve short term events.

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Seems a little disingenuous when you have to cut in and out of the new developments that were not precluded by Stampede to try to blame empty lots on them...is Stampede really the reason Erlton developments stopped where they did? What about the lovely riverfront south of Elbow River Casino - MacLeod Trail couldn't have anything to do with that? If only Stampede didn't scoop up that triangle on the east side of the river between the warehouses and city operations yards, it could have been something amazing?

Why didn't you include Enmax Park or the youth campus area - lands actually owned by Stampede?

You also could have shot all the way out to 2nd St SW between 15-18 Aves...it must be Stampede's stench from 700 meters away that causes 17ths vibrancy to abruptly turn into a weird zombie land of funeral homes, cult churches, and parking lots?


That prime, riverfront land is also a flood plain. It's been possible to canoe onto the racetrack on a few occasions more than just 2013. Of course it could all be better, but West Village seems like a far more useless wasteland. Death to the Pumphouse Theatre Board!!!!!!
 
In my idea world, I would like to see the following things in the entertainment district:
-Large entertainment type restaurant (Rec Room)
-Upscale restaurant
-Small movie theatre like the one at Market Mall
-Coffee shop/pizza place/ice cream ala Bridgeland
-Couple unique fast food chains, maybe from the states (Chik fil A, In and Out) if they were ever to open up here.
-possible nightclub/bar
-Fanattic merchandise store
-any other small retail bays for willing merchants

Surround everything with some nice wide sidewalks, bike lanes, fancy streetlights, trees, and nice plaza and boom!

Have we got a deal for you! I’ve got a failing wine bar! A Stampede Grill that the locals avoid cause the food is subpar! A Flames store that’s only open during games! An overpriced cafe that closes at 6! A hotel lobby bar that serves $18 margaritas and a misplaced Lobster Roll take out place!
 
What I don't get is why they don't just build the parkade underground with the community arena on top. They're going to be digging a big hole for the arena and the event level will be underground so we might as well build the parkade for staff, players, and executives underground at the same time.
Cost and flood mitigation. It appears it was better to expand the site rather than implement expensive interventions to stack things.
 
Seems a bit extreme.

I’m not sure if the Stampede’s influence and manipulation of local political and development practices that destroyed Victoria Park, is equivalent to the role that Pumphouse Theatre has in West Village lol.
Yes, the big bad not-for-profit volunteer Stampede board is certainly to blame for policies directed by the City of Calgary, federal government, and megaevents like the Olympics and failed world's fair. 🤣
 
Seems a bit extreme.

I’m not sure if the Stampede’s influence and manipulation of local political and development practices that destroyed Victoria Park, is equivalent to the role that Pumphouse Theatre has in West Village lol.
Pumphouse Theatre literally poisoned the city's water supply to build an impenetrable toxic moat for their fiefdom. I mean, how else did the creosote get there? Bond villain stuff!


Seriously though, Stampede has certainly under-delivered in many regards, but the complaints here some hyperbolic. I've already listed a lot of progress they have made...but most of it isn't visible from MacLeod or 12th or walking to the Dome or any of the other ways most people interface with the area. Which is maybe a problem in itself, but I look at a lot of it as groundwork to facilitate next steps - e.g. relocating ops from NE of the Saddledome and generally transforming the riverbank.

Now that area is still quite under-utilized because it is a bit of an inaccessible island, but I'd argue the bus barns and Saddledome are the biggest cause of that disconnect. It's not hard to see the potential as each of those spaces are redeveloped - Enmax Park becomes the eastern terminus of 17th, an unobstructed 250 meters from the new Convention Centre; Riverwalk becomes contiguous through Fort Calgary/Deane House.

Can we also acknowledge that the last decade of uncertainty about the Flames next arena makes it a lot tougher to plan and execute major changes? Even knowing that the current plan was the most likely all along, it has kept about 27 acres in limbo until we actually see shovels in the ground.
 
An interesting proposal out of Ottawa for their Lansdowne Park redevelopment - posting here as it's an example of a sports/entertainment district with both large facilities, many large events. Article here:

Lansdowne decisions put hockey arena move in spotlight​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/landsdowne-hockey-arena-development-1.6854698

From an design and site evolution perspective, Lansdowne is applicable to our debates on Stampede Park's issues and also Foothill Athletic Park redevelop if that ever comes to fruition. In particular, I like Ottawa's example for it's ability to contain itself within the site, an appreciation for mixed use and retail development, and progressively add more intensive uses within the same footprint - while keeping the ability to host larger scale events. Lansdowne also managed to do all this while losing all it's surface parking despite no proximity to rapid transit.

Background:
Lansdowne Park is located in central Ottawa, along a popular Bank Street and The Glebe neighbourhood, sitting in the curve of the Rideau Canal. It's a different vintage of city than Calgary but the local geography and vibe is somewhat similar to our Mission neighbourhood and its relationship to the city centre, the river and Stampede Park. Lots of cafes and restaurants, high degree of walkability, a little over a century old. The neighbourhood and the exhibition ground blend into each other to a degree, substantially improved integration with the redevelopment. Looking at historic photos, no major parking crater ever emerged that competed directly with the neighbourhood’s land uses, like what happens in Victoria Park.

Other similarities - both exhibition areas have sports and entertainment district companies with connections into the local political space, both examples have hoovered up substantial public investment over their 100+ year history. Both have had substantial parts of their history as a horse-racing track and other exhibition uses (Lansdowne had stock-car racing for a while, for example). And of course, both Stampede and Lansdowne have had endless public debate on the degree in which the public should be investing in these area, and if there's a better use for both the funds available and the space itself. Both have been criticized for being empty wastelands when an event is not on and taking up valuable inner city real estate to the benefit of few.

Of course, Stampede Park and Lansdowne aren't completely the same (Stampede is a larger event than those typically hosted at Lansdown, Stampede Park is about 2x larger, and Stampede has multiple rapid transit stations in close proximity, for examples). But from a design and site master plan perspective, Lansdowne has lots of lessons on how to convert an under-utilized surface parking lot exhibition grounds into something more woven into the neighbourhood - without destroying it.



~2011 ish, right before redevelopment:

1690221420399.png


Current build out - includes a cineplex, Whole Foods, 1,000 stall underground parking garage, many acres of new greenspace for outdoor events.
1690221960750.png

Future proposal - adding 1,200 units of housing. According to the article, 90% of the property taxes from these units will be used as debt repayment for the improvements to the park. The 5,500 seat OHL team arena is located in the eastern endzone, with the grass roof.
1690221554272.png


To my knowledge, despite substantial public investments, Ottawa didn't need to make any weird deals to pay for surface parking replacements nearby. It also didn't spend half-a-century slowly destabilizing and replacing The Glebe neighbourhood to accommodate future expansion of the exhibition area. The result is an attractive urban neighbourhood bustling with shops and retail, plus an entertainment district and lots events and green space.

We absolutely could have a better Stampede Park - and better urban environment around it - if we wanted to.
 

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An interesting proposal out of Ottawa for their Lansdowne Park redevelopment - posting here as it's an example of a sports/entertainment district with both large facilities, many large events. Article here:

Lansdowne decisions put hockey arena move in spotlight​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/landsdowne-hockey-arena-development-1.6854698

From an design and site evolution perspective, Lansdowne is applicable to our debates on Stampede Park's issues and also Foothill Athletic Park redevelop if that ever comes to fruition. In particular, I like Ottawa's example for it's ability to contain itself within the site, an appreciation for mixed use and retail development, and progressively add more intensive uses within the same footprint - while keeping the ability to host larger scale events. Lansdowne also managed to do all this while losing all it's surface parking despite no proximity to rapid transit.

Background:
Lansdowne Park is located in central Ottawa, along a popular Bank Street and The Glebe neighbourhood, sitting in the curve of the Rideau Canal. It's a different vintage of city than Calgary but the local geography and vibe is somewhat similar to our Mission neighbourhood and it's relationship to the city centre, the river and Stampede Park. Lots of cafes and restaurants, high degree of walkability, a little over a century old. The neighbourhood and the exhibition ground

Other similarities - both exhibition areas have sports and entertainment district companies with connections into the local political space, both examples have hoovered up substantial public investment over their 100+ year history. Both have had substantial parts of their history as a horse-racing track and other exhibition uses (Lansdowne had stock-car racing for a while, for example). And of course, both Stampede and Lansdowne have had endless public debate on the degree in which the public should be investing in these area, and if there's a better use for both the funds available and the space itself. Both have been criticized for being empty wastelands when an event is not on and taking up valuable inner city real estate to the benefit of few.

Of course, Stampede Park and Lansdowne aren't completely the same (Stampede is a larger event than those typically hosted at Lansdown, Stampede Park is about 2x larger, and Stampede has multiple rapid transit stations in close proximity, for examples). Butt from a design and site master plan perspective, Lansdowne has lots of lessons on how to convert an under-utilized surface parking lot exhibition grounds into something more woven into the neighbourhood - without destroying it.



~2011 ish, right before redevelopment:



Current build out - includes a cineplex, Whole Foods, 1,000 stall underground parking garage, many acres of new greenspace for outdoor events.

Future proposal - adding 1,200 units of housing. According to the article, 90% of the property taxes from these units will be used as debt repayment for the improvements to the park. The 5,500 seat OHL team arena is located in the eastern endzone, with the grass roof.


To my knowledge, despite substantial public investments, Ottawa didn't need to make any weird deals to pay for surface parking replacements nearby. It also didn't spend half-a-century slowly destabilizing and replacing The Glebe neighbourhood to accommodate future expansion of the exhibition area. The result is an attractive urban neighbourhood bustling with shops and retail, plus an entertainment district and lots events and green space.

We absolutely could have a better Stampede Park - and better urban environment around it - if we wanted to.
The private developers most of the site was long term leased to built a 1000 car parkade as part of the retail development, plus were allowed to divide off land to build condos (with parking) to help pay for phase one. Sounds like one could call that a weird deal ;)

This new phase involves more public land being turned over permanently to support rebuilding half the stadium and replacing the hockey arena with one 1/2th the size.

It helps that Ottawa's equivalent of a fair is much smaller. The midway fair equivalent is held out past the Ottawa airport.

Anyways no free lunch.
 

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