Scotia Place | 36.85m | 11s | CSEC | HOK

Do you support the proposal for the new arena?

  • Yes

    Votes: 103 67.3%

  • No

    Votes: 40 26.1%

  • Maybe

    Votes: 10 6.5%
  • Total voters
    153
Duck Lightning said:
Whispers: An arena where the Eau Claire Market is currently would be nice
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Please no. Arenas, like convention centers and stadiums are monoliths that disrupt the street grid. They should be up against pre-existing barriers. The last proposed site is already too close to the Elbow. Obstructing the Bow would be even worse.

The only suitable dt location would be on the rail corridor
 
darwink said:
People are realizing the market failures. Sure maybe you make the $20 margin for flames games (that the flames agreed for a higher facility fee for flames games is evidence of this), but on other events a fee high enough make the arena pencil means the event doesn’t go ahead. So now the second least popular event has a higher fee, which destroys its margin and it cancels. This continues until you only have the Flames, but they can’t cover the arena cost with just flames games, so the facility never gets built.

It is an adverse selection problem, where the revenue maximum and utility maximization is still at a loss. It sucks. It is not unique to sports arenas.

The point of my example is that there are very few venues that have utilization and market power high enough to make money. The O2, Madison Square Garden, the Staples Centre, and the Air Canada Centre are the ones that come to mind. And the Air Canada Centre still had subsidies (cheap loans, a cheap as free land swap) and building at a generational low for construction costs (they got really lucky).

The venues that make money are in metros much larger than Calgary. Most have sports anchors which sell out for half their events or more.

Like I get we all want to not have to subsidize arenas right? But besides Toronto the private funded arenas of the 90s financially damaged their owners so much that they had to sell. The numbers today aren’t any better.
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Who cares if the owners lose money and sell to someone else who can better manage the facility?
 
Duck Lightning said:
livewirecalgary.com

Calgary arena 'fresh start' could include a new downtown location - LiveWire Calgary

Calgary’s Event Centre plan isn’t fixed on the current Victoria Park location, as the sides are committed to looking at all options for a new arena. The Event Centre committee held its first meeting of 2023, with the updated information delivered behind closed doors. When the committee last...
livewirecalgary.com livewirecalgary.com
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If it moves location, will that impact the proposed hotel that Matthews Southwest recently announced? I suppose that was announced when the arena deal was "dead", so it shouldn't.
 
DougB said:
Please no. Arenas, like convention centers and stadiums are monoliths that disrupt the street grid. They should be up against pre-existing barriers. The last proposed site is already too close to the Elbow. Obstructing the Bow would be even worse.
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Just curious - what's your opinion of MSG then? From that perspective, is that arena a failure?
 
IceCreamMan said:
Just curious - what's your opinion of MSG then? From that perspective, is that arena a failure?
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MSG doesn't meaningfully disrupt the grid and is built on top of a rail terminus that would otherwise be a wasteland. I doubt a modern facility could squeeze into that footprint
 
MichaelS said:
If it moves location, will that impact the proposed hotel that Matthews Southwest recently announced? I suppose that was announced when the arena deal was "dead", so it shouldn't.
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How would a different location resolve any of the challenges? The previously proposed site would have occupied low cost land, free from industrial contamination, in an area that is basically a blank slate for redevelopment, near all three light rail lines, at the end of an extended 17th Ave bar strip. About the ony advantages of a different location might possibly be eliminating the cost to raise above flood plain, or anchoring a large private sector development.
 
darwink said:
Saskatoon is likely to to build a close to $400 million arena.

In the end, it isn't an economic decision. There is not a measurable economic basis for making it (that we end up economically better off is questionable at best). Speaking as a finance person.

But there are plenty of unmeasurable things. It is like having an orchestra. Or opera. Or ballet. All these activities also require subsidy. Their facilities require subsidy. Yet it would be rare to find a metro area without them. Why? Do we think we'd rank as high on the Economist liveable city list if we got rid of all the subsidies for things which didn't have a measurable return for GDP?
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Opera etc. can't get away with multi-hundred dollar tickets prices, $40 parking and $20 beers
 
A CalgaryNext style project on the Vic Park bus barns / Remington site makes some sense. Could even coordinate construction with the green line and have an integrated station.
 
My assumption, judging by the engagement of the province in the process and all the benefits CSEC can get out of it (new Stampeders stadium, development opportunity, and most important parking revenue) that we're going to see the 2009 West Village Redevelopment plan reopened and updated (ever so slightly) to include CalgaryNext.

For the city that is a problem... Suddenly the C+E could be without an anchor (outside the convention centre). Would the Stampede Trail be necessary at all? The Calgary Stampede could be without all the parking revenue they get from Saddledome events. Sure, the city could pivot but you would have to think the timeline on the East VIllage and Victoria Park get much longer without an arena.

Edit: But can the city pass up an opportunity to clean up the West Village and get it paid for my the province? I don't think so, West Village/CalgaryNext it is. Who cares if EV and VP take an extra 10-15 years to build out. It has been proven, these arenas and stadiums don't create new economic activity they simply redirect it. So where do we want the economic activity? VP (where it might just happen anyways) or WV (where you can get someone else to cleanup the soil mess).
 
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I prefer the Vic Park area. They have a plan that could integrate well with EV and the rest of Downtown as well as Stampede. They can even fit a Winnipeg-style CFL/CPL stadium beside it if they want with all the open land. It also works well with the green line routes.
 
CalgaryTiger said:
My assumption, judging by the engagement of the province in the process and all the benefits CSEC can get out of it (new Stampeders stadium, development opportunity, and most important parking revenue) that we're going to see the 2009 West Village Redevelopment plan reopened and updated (ever so slightly) to include CalgaryNext.

For the city that is a problem... Suddenly the C+E could be without an anchor (outside the convention centre). Would the Stampede Trail be necessary at all? The Calgary Stampede could be without all the parking revenue they get from Saddledome events. Sure, the city could pivot but you would have to think the timeline on the East VIllage and Victoria Park get much longer without an arena.

Edit: But can the city pass up an opportunity to clean up the West Village and get it paid for my the province? I don't think so, West Village/CalgaryNext it is. Who cares if EV and VP take an extra 10-15 years to build out. It has been proven, these arenas and stadiums don't create new economic activity they simply redirect it. So where do we want the economic activity? VP (where it might just happen anyways) or WV (where you can get someone else to cleanup the soil mess).
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The cleanup costs for WV are uncertain, other than they likely won't be in the millions or tens of millions. How would this site derisk the project?

If it were possible to force the original polluter to clean-up the site, that would have happened by now:
calgaryherald.com

Toxic creosote in Calgary's West Village not our problem, says Domtar

Domtar Corp., the successor of a company that owned and operated a wood preserving plant in Calgary’s West Village, maintains it has no responsibility for the…
calgaryherald.com calgaryherald.com
financialpost.com

Legal precedents in Alberta could mean Flames' arena site gets cleaned up by a third party

The owners of the Calgary Flames NHL franchise as seek to build an $890-million sports complex on a site west of downtown that has been contaminated with coal…
financialpost.com financialpost.com
 
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