Scotia Place | 36.85m | 11s | CSEC | HOK

[Tothewest]

The improvement in bowl design is worth the wait. Worth $400 million? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well its only 300, the balance is roads/underpasses/ect from the province. The fact we have bigger plaza's, an underground practice arena, more sidewalks/gathering spaces, and then an actual arena that isnt crammed and is deeper in the earth....it's now been done the right way but is nonetheless expensive. We probably would have gone 75-100 over budget anyway on the previous attempt

The first interior casualty compared to the first design....press box/club bridges. There is now only a recessed press box on one side. Perhaps this was never a desire but more a need in the previous version given the shitty square footage available for proper club space?

This is the only modern arena design for a 18k+ seat arena that doesn't come across as imposing and monolithic from ground level. The design is a little busy but it manages to have nice scale at street level while still being a functional NHL arena.

Little Caesars is the only one i can think of, more because they hid it with 4-story commercial/office space on 2 of the streets. Google is an actual tenant in their arena

 

[CBBarnett]

It does appear like it will be a good arena. I see they couldn't help themselves with some swoopy or angular features. We will see how those age in 30 years when it's time to do this dance all over again. Hopefully the design and scale of this will be a bit of future-proofing on it's own, easier to retrofit to changing tastes/economics so we don't have to rebuild an arena in my lifetime. I would have preferred if they had been more intentional about integrating this arena directly to development so it would hardly stand out at all - but that turn-off was missed years ago in the design process so hard to complain now.

I don't really get the community arena scheme to bury it - at enormous cost - in return for an extra $400m in public subsidy. Granted, that extra money includes a bunch of transportation upgrades nearby too, but seems like the type of solution only possible when politically a community benefit is required and that benefit must be on-site for some reason, but also that community benefit can't interfere with the private interests of the overall arena. The outcome of that formula is a strange subterranean arena design at far greater cost than just building that same community arena across the street at grade on city-owned land. All these randomly added "public benefits" for the rink and transportation are a method to obscure the true amount of subsidy as the public gets some stuff in return (but at a higher overall cost to the taxpayer).

Politics be politicking though - they felt they had to get this project smushed together into one massive package and this is the result. Fair enough.

Was it worth it? For flames fans and arena attendees that can afford a ticket, of course - will be a great venue and massive upgrade from the Saddledome.

Was it worth it from a development perspective? We will see - all the boosters are back out there excited about all the redevelopment that this type of investment will trigger. It didn't work last time we refreshed all the facilities in the area, but this is a lot more public money spent between this and the convention centre. I am still skeptical we will see any of these large parking lots - including a future larger parking lot where the Saddledome is today - disappear given the powers involved in the area. But I would be happy to be wrong!

 

[Mountain Man]

It does appear like it will be a good arena. I see they couldn't help themselves with some swoopy or angular features. We will see how those age in 30 years when it's time to do this dance all over again. Hopefully the design and scale of this will be a bit of future-proofing on it's own, easier to retrofit to changing tastes/economics so we don't have to rebuild an arena in my lifetime. I would have preferred if they had been more intentional about integrating this arena directly to development so it would hardly stand out at all - but that turn-off was missed years ago in the design process so hard to complain now.

I don't really get the community arena scheme to bury it - at enormous cost - in return for an extra $400m in public subsidy. Granted, that extra money includes a bunch of transportation upgrades nearby too, but seems like the type of solution only possible when politically a community benefit is required and that benefit must be on-site for some reason, but also that community benefit can't interfere with the private interests of the overall arena. The outcome of that formula is a strange subterranean arena design at far greater cost than just building that same community arena across the street at grade on city-owned land. All these randomly added "public benefits" for the rink and transportation are a method to obscure the true amount of subsidy as the public gets some stuff in return (but at a higher overall cost to the taxpayer).

Politics be politicking though - they felt they had to get this project smushed together into one massive package and this is the result. Fair enough.

Was it worth it? For flames fans and arena attendees that can afford a ticket, of course - will be a great venue and massive upgrade from the Saddledome.

Was it worth it from a development perspective? We will see - all the boosters are back out there excited about all the redevelopment that this type of investment will trigger. It didn't work last time we refreshed all the facilities in the area, but this is a lot more public money spent between this and the convention centre. I am still skeptical we will see any of these large parking lots - including a future larger parking lot where the Saddledome is today - disappear given the powers involved in the area. But I would be happy to be wrong!

Hopefully at least one Hotel gets built in the area!

 

[CalgaryTiger]

Some Elevations​

View attachment 582639View attachment 582640View attachment 582641View attachment 582642

Bonus Entry height comparison:​

View attachment 582643

Maybe just me but the east elevation is not bad at all. If those art pieces are well executed, I think it can still be decent.

There is still a ton left unknown, we know nothing but the seating capacity. I'm sure there will be trickle out of more detailed information.

The community arena is underground because that puts it on the same level as the team's dressing rooms. Plus then you get an outdoor plaza that you can activate.

I don't actually think this will really move the needle in Victoria Park. I expect the previously announced hotel (12 Ave and Stampede Trail beside the Casino) to happen now. I also suspect that the Stampede and CSEC will move into some kind of shared office space but really that is it. Everyone could see this coming for over a year and you haven't seen any action let alone any type of perpetual momentum in developing the area. I do think this project will eventually spur some development immediately next to the parcel, thinking of that old Lamb Orchard site but really there's so much else going on around the Beltline (Truman's three projects, the new one that we've heard about on 17th and 4th) you likely see all those start and finish before seeing something here.

 

[YYCguy]

It’s a shame that the Saddledome will be coming down.It’s such an iconic building! I think a water park or some other innovative recreational use would have activated stampede park all year round.

I do hope that further development will be spurred on around the area, especially on Stampede Trail, akin to a European high street.

PS: will there be a direct connection from the green line station to the event centre, as is the case with Victoria park station currently?

 

[konradiical]

I wonder if there stuff around the Scotia Place will wait until it is built before towers get proposed or they get built while the arena is under construction?

 

[haltcatchfire]

It’s a shame that the Saddledome will be coming down.It’s such an iconic building! I think a water park or some other innovative recreational use would have activated stampede park all year round.

I do hope that further development will be spurred on around the area, especially on Stampede Trail, akin to a European high street.

PS: will there be a direct connection from the green line station to the event centre, as is the case with Victoria park station currently?

The sidewalk of Stampede Trail will be the connection to the green line station. No underground connection.

 

[haltcatchfire]

I wonder if their stuff around the Scotia Place will wait until it is built before towers get proposed or they get built while the arena is under construction?

I expect the new arena to be zero draw for tower development. The hotel across to the west is probably all we’ll see for a while.

 

[MissingMiddle]

My thoughts in 2 parts:

1. Arena Design
I wouldn't call it exceptional in the way that the Central Library was, but I believe it will fundamentally improve the hockey/event experience in East Victoria Park. It won't be on the front page of architectural digest, but the street activation with the Restaurants/Bars/Team Store/Food Hall is excellent. Community Rink is a win entirely thanks to tax money. Above ground parkade is a total miss, but at this point, whatever. I'm happy with the result, but it was too much public money.

The fire motif on the upper part of the exterior is tasteful. As mentioned, I believe it will be accomplished with white paneling, fins, and upward LED lighting. My only hope is that the lighting is somewhat dynamic, as to depict actual flames (with slower movement), I think it would make it feel more alive. I completely agree that Scotia Place is lame, however fans should probably come to a consensus on whether it will be the Fire Place or Cauldron.

View attachment 582523
was referring to the sandstone material behind the "fire pit" in the official rendering , which the HOK rendering displays as dark grey siding

My favorite part of this is the placement of the seats/bowl on the site. Highlighted below:

They also have a side profile up with where the bowl sits compared to street level
View attachment 582526

The pedestrian experience on the street flows into the primary concourse of the building, and back out. This will single-handedly transform the vibrancy of the neighborhood when compared to the Saddledome (pending future development, more on that below). The people in the arena for an event will spill into the neighborhood as they leave, which is always a net win.

It will also enable this building to be renovated forever, because the core placement of the bowl is correct. We won't have to do this new building thing all over again in 30 years, as incremental changes can occur and immediately provide value (think: restaurants updates, bathroom renovations, street wall redesign, roof replacement, locker room refinishes, etc.).

2. Future Adjacent Development
While it is the keystone to future development, I don't think it's enough on it's own to spur the development this area needs. Luckily, all the other things are (slowly) in the works. There's a few key pieces that need to happen - along with the development economics in order to make it happen:

• Development on West Side of Olympic Way - apparently there's a hotel planned here, which will be excellent for visiting teams, conventions at BMO, and Stampede. However, the hotel by itself will not take up the entire stretch from 12th to the new BMO, something with street-level interaction is required. I'd like to see a Rec Room (or similar) with street patios. Local brewery stretch? Each one getting 30ft wide frontage, could net over 20 establishments, and make the world's best bar hop.
• Olympic Way Closed to Vehicles During Events - this is depicted in renders but I actually want it to happen. It will also substantially help with traffic, as pickups on the south side of the building will be directed between the new 17th Ave intersection, and pedestrians moving to the Red Line station will be uninterrupted.
• Prominade between Arena and Green Line Station - Crossing 12th will be interesting, but the route toward the new Green Line Station must be pedestrian oriented and activated, this will encourage the East Victoria Park neighborhood to absorb the pre/post event foot traffic.
• Opera Centre and East Side of 5th Street - needs attention from the stampede. Derelict parking lots simply will not do.
• EVP Streetscape Improvement - I know this is included in the EVP Master Plan, but plant as many street trees as possible. Silva Cells required. A solid tree canopy, wide sidewalks, and separated bike lanes will make this exceptional.
• Bus Barn Demolition - I don't see a way for the neighborhood to become vibrant without it:

What is really needed is the ability for the housing market to absorb that many units, and financier's to get a return on construction financing and select this area to develop in. The arena will net a higher return on units built, but planning fundamentals still exist. I'd look at the successes and failures of the East Village compared to the University District for inspiration there.

Aside from the hotel, I doubt we'll see much movement before completion of the arena and green line, but we're making good progress. Build it.

 

[Tothewest]

Some other items after disecting the DP files (why not the floor by floor plans like last time???)

- no obvious box office at any entrance, guessing this is just a sign of the times (digital only)
- stage end for concerts is opposite the zamboni access, that is highly abnormal
- appears the CSEC offices are going to be in a mezzanine above the restaurants/flames store, but beneath the outdoor patio (so on the club/suite level). The entrance is via the north club/suite entrance, which is also indicating the only sign NEXT to an entrance (not above live everywhere else, very corporate). Also a unique stairwell that the primary suite entrance on the east side (parkade) doesnt have. Suite holders dont do stairs lol.

 

[trtcttc]

What is really needed is the ability for the housing market to absorb that many units, and financier's to get a return on construction financing and select this area to develop in. The arena will net a higher return on units built, but planning fundamentals still exist. I'd look at the successes and failures of the East Village compared to the University District for inspiration there.

I wonder if part of the issue is our large office supply. When Toronto redeveloped the South Core, which also started with the arena in a sea of parking lots, it was filled out gradually with mostly commercial office towers and hotels, creating a second core to the financial centre. Slowly there are residential in the area but in general it's not an ideal residential location. It's loud, and prone to STR and safety issues (i.e Ice Condos in Toronto). For most people the Beltline is significantly more attractive than a condo by the arena/Stampede. With almost no commercial appetite, I don't see how there'd be enough residential demand in the area to actually build a neighbourhood there.

 

[maestro]

Arena districts developed as American billionaire owners realised that instead of 600 million in cash, loans and tax incentives to build an arena they could get 1.6 billion in cash, loans, and tax incentives developing an entire arena district. An NHL arena that attracts people from all across Southern Alberta is not a keystone for building a downtown residential community. Teams demand for on site practice facilities has been branded as community rinks. The team's interests are above the public interests when it comes to the availability of the publicly funded rink. I expect the same with the Flames.

 

[artvandelay]

This design is a massive improvement from the previous iteration in almost every way - but the urban design interface is the clear differentiator. Even if you're not a fan of the architecture, you have to admit the design team nailed it on the most important dimension of the design for a massive building like this!

 

[Tothewest]

Arena districts developed as American billionaire owners realised that instead of 600 million in cash, loans and tax incentives to build an arena they could get 1.6 billion in cash, loans, and tax incentives developing an entire arena district. An NHL arena that attracts people from all across Southern Alberta is not a keystone for building a downtown residential community. Teams demand for on site practice facilities has been branded as community rinks. The team's interests are above the public interests when it comes to the availability of the publicly funded rink. I expect the same with the Flames.

People, especially younger adults, in high density like to live near amenities, that is proven across north america. Transit, food, entertainment...where the action is. The arena events, the plaza, community arena (CSEC is using only from 10am-2pm probably, so plenty of public use), restaurants, food hall....is going to do some heavy foot traffic lifting on its own, which the current arena does not. A single hotel on 4th, plus a single development on 12th ave, that alone will do wonders for the Rivers. Sure the whole area will take time, but the 24hour, 365 change with this arena design will be noticeable

 

[Albertasaurus]

The fire motif on the upper part of the exterior is tasteful. As mentioned, I believe it will be accomplished with white paneling, fins, and upward LED lighting. My only hope is that the lighting is somewhat dynamic, as to depict actual flames (with slower movement), I think it would make it feel more alive. I completely agree that Scotia Place is lame, however fans should probably come to a consensus on whether it will be the Fire Place or Cauldron.

Agreed, I would imagine one of those much cooler names will stick - especially with . In Seattle, fans often refer to the Kraken's Climate Pledge Arena (regardless of good intentions, a really awkward and clunky name IMO) as "CP".

On another note, they're not wasting time getting going on this. Went by the site earlier this aft, they're already at work ripping down the wooden fencing around the site, and there were already a number of track hoes on site that looked like they had started excavating. Good to see this finally happening!