DiscoStu
Active Member
I didn't realize Little Ceasar's had a street car line adjacent to the arena. How neat would it be if we had one of these running down 12th Ave (or similar) east-west in the Beltline.
Scotia Place | 36.85m | 11s | CSEC | HOK
- Thread starter Meikkhaell
- Start date
CalgaryTiger
Senior Member
Ha I completely forgot about the "community" arena. You're right, that's what that is.
Golfing guy
Active Member
Well there will be the Greenline a block to the north and Red line a block or so to the west. We’ll be fineI didn't realize Little Ceasar's had a street car line adjacent to the arena. How neat would it be if we had one of these running down 12th Ave (or similar) east-west in the Beltline.
Mountain Man
Senior Member
Seeing how people in this city can't stop getting hit by, or hitting the Ctrain, I prefer the buried subway as proposed...
DiscoStu
Active Member
True, but neither of the train lines really serve the Beltline. Right now, our transit system puts the priority on commuting, but if society has made a non-insignificant shift away from that model, then a street-car circle loop that just focuses on getting residents around the inner-city neighborhoods would be pretty decent infrastructure investment (compared to adding onto a C-train leg in the far reaches of the suburbs). Say a loop that goes from Victoria Park>Sunalta>Lower Mount Royal>Mission....and perhaps something similar on the north side between Bridgeland and Hillhurst. Ideally nothing fancy either...no crazy overbuilt stations or bridges/tunnels.
Well yeah, subway is always preferred, but that's like 10x as expensive as streetcar.
1875
Senior Member
17th ave from the arena to westbrook but doubt theres room
maestro
Senior Member
A bus is cheaper than a streetcar. Something to consider down the road. I just don't see the population to support a $200 million downtown streetcar loop.
whatchyyc
Active Member
The city actually did a centre city streetcar study a while back.
I think circulators are not that great in practice. They waste a lot of time and track looping around for not a lot of benefit, IMO route A and D are the best because they serve those long corridors and would actually be useful for getting somewhere. Route A could be a single line along with the MRU streetcar
I think circulators are not that great in practice. They waste a lot of time and track looping around for not a lot of benefit, IMO route A and D are the best because they serve those long corridors and would actually be useful for getting somewhere. Route A could be a single line along with the MRU streetcar
CalgaryTiger
Senior Member
A and D are great, but do they really require loops are there not streetcars you can operate from one end both ways or have a operators spot on either side?
I'd like to see A turn south to MRU and D go all the way to Britannia. But as has been said buses are much cheaper. Just make these frequent bus routes.
OR... Have the D route going down 4th and into Mission and then into the barley belt east of Macleod.
darwink
Senior Member
Yes. Toronto had to order their streetcars custom so they only had doors on one side and an operating cab at only one end.
DiscoStu
Active Member
A and D is great, Id take that in a heartbeat.
True true....but on the hand... trains rule, and buses drool. Although I'm a little biased, as having to take 3 buses just to get the school in the morning (and then 3 back) for many years kinda soured me on the things for life.
Joborule
Active Member
I do feel that the 17 Ave streetcar will happen at some point in the future. Likely would be part of the planned MRU line from Westbrook station.
I think D should be done as well, to have a route that goes from river to river on 4 St. Hopefully at that point, Eau Claire will actually be developed into a proper neighborhood, LOL.
I think D should be done as well, to have a route that goes from river to river on 4 St. Hopefully at that point, Eau Claire will actually be developed into a proper neighborhood, LOL.
CBBarnett
Senior Member
Just do it you cowards, it's right in the name already!
- Red, Blue, Green transfers? Check
- Special event entertainment district and stampede? Check
- 24/7/365 quality main streets - Check
- 17th Avenue SW - centre of urban life in Calgary, nightlife
- Inglewood - shopping and weekend nightlife
- 17th Avenue SE - major centre for better food and diversity, cheaper housing
ByeByeBaby
Active Member
The thing with operating a out-and-back service where the operator switches ends is that you then absolutely need at least the turnaround area to be dedicated to transit (since it has two-way transit service in a single lane, including a couple of minutes with the streetcar stopped while the driver switches ends). You can't do streetcar-in-mixed-traffic, which is cheaper in terms of political capital.
The D route makes more sense going down Mission Road; there's no point in increasing transit service down a corridor that already has decent transit service and that isn't going to intensify beyond single-family detached mansions, which is basically everything on Elbow between 26th and 48th avenues.
The thing with circulators -- by which I mean relatively short transit routes that cover dense areas -- is that they are competing with walking, which means that for the general public they only work with very high frequencies. From 4th St & 17th Ave, it's 700m to Tomkins Park/Best Buy, 800m to the Vic Park LRT, or to Earl's in Mission and 1000m to 7th Ave LRT. That range of walk is 10-15 minutes, depending on speed and how you hit the lights. If you take a circulator, it'll take 3-5 minutes to travel. If it runs every 20 minutes (which is often MAX frequency), then most of the time, you would be faster to walk. Even if it runs every 10 minutes, if the streetcar just left you'll be able to walk to a destination 12 or 13 minutes away faster than the streetcar can get you there.
And that's without considering a fare. If you're using a circulator to connect to transit, then the marginal fare is free; you'd pay anyways. But if you are paying money for the circulator, are you going to pay $4 to save two minutes? Unlikely. Here's a figure based on a toy model; considering walk distances from 700-1000m at speeds from 3.5 to 4.8 km/h and ride times of 3-5 minutes, with $20 per hour value of time. It's not perfect, but a general guideline.
If you run them frequently and offer a cheap fare, you can attract people to a circulator; a good example is the DC Circulator, which attracts 1.5M riders a year across 6 routes; the buses run every 10 minutes and the fare is $1. But the routes are longer than the A or D above; DC has a large area built up to a reasonably high density (due to the lack of skyscrapers), and the subsidy is still $3-4 per rider. And the Free Fare Zone here attracts ~6 times as many riders.
Because they only work with high frequency and low cost, circulators are an expensive game for a transit agency to operate. And to some degree, you're replacing walking with motor vehicle usage. Their main benefit in general is as a tool to encourage development.
Over longer distances, you are no longer competing with walking. Here's the same figure with the distances (walk and ride times) doubled to represent 1.5-2km distances:
At this point, though, transit starts to compete with the car.
DiscoStu
Active Member
For shits and giggles, here's a 3 minute quicky idea of what a Northside line could look like. Connecting Bridgeland/Sunnyside/Kensington/Parkdale/University District. Goal would be to try to hit (or get close to) all the neighborhood high streets. Maybe there's a way to include Renfrew/Edmonton Trail too, but that would require another couple of minutes of effort.
