Green Line LRT | ?m | ?s | Calgary Transit

[artvandelay]

It depends on the perspective.

From the perspective of providing high quality access for drivers to access suburban destinations, it's a great piece of infrastructure.
From the perspective of a city that had adopted goals of reduced suburban sprawl, reduced auto dominance, increased transit usage, reduced GHG emissions and so on -- which were the City of Calgary's stated policy goals at the time of construction -- it makes no sense whatsoever to spend billions on infrastructure that runs counter to every single major goal.
From the perspective of creating transit ridership in the SE and the potential success and value of the Green Line there, building very large, very fast roads connecting the SE with everywhere is incredibly counterproductive.

The ring road is an excellent infrastructure investment as is the Green Line.

It's not just about providing access for drivers (which is nice), it's about having a functional transportation network for goods and services to move throughout the region.

 

[artvandelay]

So they can just build the cheapest, at grade option that fails Calgarians and Edmontonians, if they build anything at all. Fuck the UCP. I hate how they’ve politicized this project from the get go and how they’ve dragged their heels and delayed the project and are now complaining about the cost increase due to inflation. Garbage government led by garbage politicians. Isn’t Dreeshan the same loser who was booted from Kenney’s cabinet for being an alcoholic workplace harrasser? Then there’s Danielle Smith who has constantly attacked the Greenline and instead pushed for the airport extension.

Wasn't this announced in 2015 or something? This thing should have been under construction by the time the UCP took over government - with costs locked in prior to COVID / inflation etc. I think your anger is mis-directed as this failure in project management is almost entirely on the City.

 

[Sambo]

So they can just build the cheapest, at grade option that fails Calgarians and Edmontonians, if they build anything at all. Fuck the UCP. I hate how they’ve politicized this project from the get go and how they’ve dragged their heels and delayed the project and are now complaining about the cost increase due to inflation. Garbage government led by garbage politicians. Isn’t Dreeshan the same loser who was booted from Kenney’s cabinet for being an alcoholic workplace harrasser? Then there’s Danielle Smith who has constantly attacked the Greenline and instead pushed for the airport extension.

Your weekly or is it daily anti Conservative rant? Isn’t there a political forum on this website for you?

 

[lemongrab]

It depends on the perspective.

From the perspective of providing high quality access for drivers to access suburban destinations, it's a great piece of infrastructure.
From the perspective of a city that had adopted goals of reduced suburban sprawl, reduced auto dominance, increased transit usage, reduced GHG emissions and so on -- which were the City of Calgary's stated policy goals at the time of construction -- it makes no sense whatsoever to spend billions on infrastructure that runs counter to every single major goal.
From the perspective of creating transit ridership in the SE and the potential success and value of the Green Line there, building very large, very fast roads connecting the SE with everywhere is incredibly counterproductive.

I don't think the RR is necessarily antithetical to reducing auto dominance...it could/should be a justification for a whole bunch of road diets. We'll never be able to flip a switch overnight; I don't know what proportion of RR is induced demand, but I'd venture that the majority is simply reallocating vehicles that would otherwise be on other roads.

Of course we don't follow through very well on the road-diets and transit prioritization, but it would be even harder without the freeway alternatives. We should really be examining redundant arterials like Sarcee (south) and John Laurie to see if they could be better utilized for other modes, though the bigger yields can likely be found on main streets.

I'd say the worse thing by far is Deerfoot upgrades. Years of expensive disruption. I'm not convinced that the end "benefits" ever even offset those disruptions, but of course it doesn't happen in a vaccuum. I'd probably be tarred and feathered for suggesting this, but I think you'd solve a bunch of problems with a heavily enforced 80 or 90 kph limit.

 

[DougB]

It depends on the perspective.

From the perspective of providing high quality access for drivers to access suburban destinations, it's a great piece of infrastructure.
From the perspective of a city that had adopted goals of reduced suburban sprawl, reduced auto dominance, increased transit usage, reduced GHG emissions and so on -- which were the City of Calgary's stated policy goals at the time of construction -- it makes no sense whatsoever to spend billions on infrastructure that runs counter to every single major goal.
From the perspective of creating transit ridership in the SE and the potential success and value of the Green Line there, building very large, very fast roads connecting the SE with everywhere is incredibly counterproductive.

The Ring Road likley delivers a far higher GDP boost than would the entire Green Line from Seton to Stoney North.

 

[darwink]

The Ring Road likley delivers a far higher GDP boost than would the entire Green Line from Seton to Stoney North.

Agreed. it isn't a zero sum game. Alberta has the money for, and the growth prospects to support "yes, and" / "why not both" infrastructure.

 

[DougB]

Agreed. it isn't a zero sum game. Alberta has the money for, and the growth prospects to support "yes, and" / "why not both" infrastructure.

But is the Green Line the best investment? I'm all for LRT service to the Deep SE. The $8B+ to get it to Seton is mind boggling given that much of the route follows freight rail or reserved RoW. If construction costs have truly escalated that much, LRT likely doesn't make sense on any corridor anymore and the money would be better spent elsewhere.

 

[darwink]

But is the Green Line the best investment? I'm all for LRT service to the Deep SE. The $8B+ to get it to Seton is mind boggling given that much of the route follows freight rail or reserved RoW. If construction costs have truly escalated that much, LRT likely doesn't make sense on any corridor anymore and the money would be better spent elsewhere.

We don't know the price for Eau Claire to Sheppard. We shall see. With corridor secured for decades in the deep SE, the expansion cost shouldn't have sticker shock. Perhaps can even redesign to get rid of the tunnel in the last approved plans.

Even straight-line, we have 31% inflation since initial estimates (2013$), and for the very early SE only plans, 52% since 2004. For Non Residential buildings construction price index Calgary CMA, since 2004 prices are up 188.6% and since 2013, prices are up 84.1% (2004-2013 is a 56.8% increase).

The costs below do not include financing. Also recall that when the below estimates were made, that the Beltline tracks and stations were at grade. I think that the below shows that beyond scope increases, the project budget is 'in control'.

	2004	2013	Now
SE Only Segment, 2 underground stations, ends at 22x	$1.7 billion (original, that I remember from debates between SE LRT and West LRT, might be off)	$2.67	$4.92
2015 Election Gambit (only nominal north plans)		$4.59 (original)	$8.45

 

[O-tac]

The Ring Road likley delivers a far higher GDP boost than would the entire Green Line from Seton to Stoney North.

What a stupid comparison to make. Public transit is a public service. It’s not intended to be dependent on GDP.

But hey, providing mobility to the workforce clearly provides a financial case as well. Particularly if you want to attract young talent that doesn’t necessarily want a car dependent lifestyle,

 

[O-tac]

Your weekly or is it daily anti Conservative rant? Isn’t there a political forum on this website for you?

The SElrt is a political issue. The UCP has made it so. Ever since 2019 they’ve been dragging their heels on it, while their big donors mount repetitive, ignorant and questionable ‘stakeholder’ protests from billionaires who have never taken transit in their lives.

The reason I bring up our provincial conservative government is that they are sabotaging the entire process for ideological, incoherent or downright deceptive reasons. Danielle Smith has made no secret about what she thinks about it. She even gave herself power to veto our municipal government and replace councillors who disagree with her.

Plus, as someone who lives in the SE and is directly affected, I care. I’ve spoken to my useless MLA Matt Jones numerous times. Even back in the Kenney days he questioned the need for the northern segment,

 

[MichaelS]

What a stupid comparison to make. Public transit is a public service. It’s not intended to be dependent on GDP.

But hey, providing mobility to the workforce clearly provides a financial case as well. Particularly if you want to attract young talent that doesn’t necessarily want a car dependent lifestyle,

But not at any cost. If this thing comes in at $1 trillion dollars (exagerating for the sake of exagerating) I think anyone would agree it is not worth it. If not, that persons support of transit is more akin to religious fanaticism, not critical thinking. So now the question becomes, how much is too much?

 

[outoftheice]

How much is too much? I would say it becomes too much when the three orders of government no longer have the fiscal capacity to pay for it. The weakest part of that equation is the City of Calgary but that is only because we adopted a 33/33/33 cost sharing model for Green Line. There are other transit projects in Canada that are funded 50/50 between the province and the Feds and both of those entities easily have the fiscal capacity to fund what is on the drawing board for Green Line.

We seem to have this bizarre problem in Calgary where we think we are living in some small 1980s prairie town and expect infrastructure spending to reflect that. In reality, we are on a rapid trajectory to become a city of 2 million people and many other cities of 2 million people are happily spending billions on building out their rail networks. Calgary is one of the few cities that seems to think we should only have to spend a few hundred million on rail because that's what we spent in the 80s and that we can use a high price tag as an excuse not to spend the money because we have hope that the hundreds of thousands of people who will soon be living in the south east and north central corridors can magically find another way to move about a city of 2 million people that doesn’t involve LRT.

 

[Albertasaurus]

Some good points raised above. I do want to see GL built, but I am at a loss to understand how it is going to cost so much for so relatively little.

One thing I have noticed, generally speaking, is that infrastructure projects - and transit projects in particular - seem to almost always go vastly overbudget in Canada nowadays. The Toronto and Ottawa LRT lines are going through a lot of the same cost challenges. Meanwhile, in European cities of comparable size to Calgary (places like Prague, Oslo, Helsinki, Vienna etc) large rail projects, including subways, LRT and commuter rail systems, are built without these cost overruns. What are we doing wrong here in Canada?

 

[Nawads]

It’s worth noting though. New transit projects in Europe are not getting any cheaper either. Oslos newest line under construction right now is costing about $300 million USD per km, which is higher then the green line. Their project also had massive costs increases that almost had it canceled before construction started. The new line in Oslo is fully underground so not a one for one comparison but the point stands. Oslo is also a smaller city then Calgary but is spending way more on their transit, because they actually want to reduce car use.

Green light for expensive metro line - Norway's News in English — www.newsinenglish.no

Construction of the much debated and delayed metro line between Oslo and Fornebu, where Oslo’s main airport used to be located, has finally been cleared to continue despite huge budget overruns. The project is already well underway, but was in danger of being scrapped as its costs kept rising...

www.newsinenglish.no

From the article:
“ Construction of the much debated and delayed metro line between Oslo and Fornebu, where Oslo’s main airport used to be located, has finally been cleared to continue despite huge budget overruns. The project is already well underway, but was in danger of being scrapped as its costs kept rising.”

 

[artvandelay]

The SElrt is a political issue. The UCP has made it so. Ever since 2019 they’ve been dragging their heels on it, while their big donors mount repetitive, ignorant and questionable ‘stakeholder’ protests from billionaires who have never taken transit in their lives.

The reason I bring up our provincial conservative government is that they are sabotaging the entire process for ideological, incoherent or downright deceptive reasons. Danielle Smith has made no secret about what she thinks about it. She even gave herself power to veto our municipal government and replace councillors who disagree with her.

Plus, as someone who lives in the SE and is directly affected, I care. I’ve spoken to my useless MLA Matt Jones numerous times. Even back in the Kenney days he questioned the need for the northern segment,

I don't think this is the case. They are rightly concerned about costs and scope creep however.