BMO Centre Expansion | 25m | 5s | CMLC

The Familia said:
I agree, I’m already resigned to the fact that the “Culture and Entertainment” district will be a flop. I really don’t see anything that they have built or proposed that would attract people outside of game days/big events. This area will be just as dead as it has always been.
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This probably shouldn't be too surprising - we are heading for a 2020s version of a 1980s entertainment district and have been for a long time. Sure, the convention centre will be bigger and shinier, maybe a new arena that's shinier too if that's ever built - but then what do we have?

Exactly what's here already - a giant convention centre and a major arena surrounded by parking lots, just new ones rather than old ones. It's all turning out to be rather incremental improvements, rather than any game-changer.

To me, the fundamentals have never changed through any of the Stampede Park projects in the past few decades. Culture and Entertainment District branding, hundreds of millions in investment, all this effort and we didn't even diversify the amenity mix for the events themselves - just a big (now bigger) corporate convention space and maybe a big arena. No new dedicated music venues, no new/different outdoor event capacity built, and apart from arena sports and a 10 day a year rodeo, no new ability to host more/different sporting events either.

We will be getting a fancy 2020s-era redesigned LRT station though - however at the price of reduced rapid transit grade-separation of the LRT so forever we have a slightly slower, slightly less reliable rapid transit transit system that is more prone to collisions and delays here.

The Familia said:
How they didn’t implement any retail or restaurants at all along the entire perimeter of the building is inexcusable. Just piss poor planning and foresight. Even if the area can’t fully support it on opening day, it should have been built regardless and could sit vacant until the area becomes a little more complete.
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Here's the thing - how will the area ever become more complete? The retail on the 17th Ave extension will forever front onto a massive, 95% empty parking lot for the Stampede to use 10 days a year. Despite every project and plan for about 40 years claiming an attempt to create a vibrant "year-round destination" , no plans have ever proposed changing the use here or intensifying south of 17th Avenue. Even if the convention centre had a different ground level design, it's still only half the corridor. Unless the convention centre is packed full daily for years, it's hard to see how there would even be consistent enough activity to support business in the area. Will it be that busy? How busy is the current convention centre?

Perhaps the Beltline will slowly fill in around the park over a few decades there will be more local demand for services and retail. Even if this happens, why would that demand go here? It will always be forever in the back corner, the dead-end of an otherwise healthy and growing urban neighbourhood, not the heart or "year-round" part of it.
The Familia said:
There should have been a restaurant with patio somewhere under the giant arm and another one closer to 17th and Weadickville. Throw in a couple small CRU’s and boom. How no one has ever thought to open a proper BBQ restaurant or upscale steakhouse inside the actual Stampede grounds is beyond me!
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Same reason that the Stampede hasn't ever opened a year-round farmers market or year-round agricultural component to it's business - the Stampede is only a brand. It has always been remarkably uninterested in the 24/7/365 functionings of the culture it celebrates. It has so little real day-to-day economic activity - just marketing and a big 10 day party once a year. That's not enough activity to support a steak house.
 
CBBarnett said:
Exactly what's here already - a giant convention centre and a major arena surrounded by parking lots, just new ones rather than old ones. It's all turning out to be rather incremental improvements, rather than any game-changer.
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Actually, the BMO Centre is currently a consumer trade show space - targeting local attendees visiting the Home and Garden show or World of Wheels. The new BMO is a tier one convention centre - targeting international visitors (such as the 30,000 Rotarians from around the world who are expected in 2025). Rotary will be Calgary’s largest ever Convention bringing in 60-80 million dollars to our economy.. That would not have happened without this building. Yes, it is a game changer.
 
403808 said:
Would you invest YOUR money in a restaurant or business located in the “perimeter of the building”? Try walking into your bank with that business plan and see what they say.
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Well, typically the perimeter of a building is the street and that's where a restaurant should go as that's how most people will interact with a building. I would think it a worse business case to have that hidden somewhere inside a space than right at the street interface.
 
403808 said:
Actually, the BMO Centre is currently a consumer trade show space - targeting local attendees visiting the Home and Garden show or World of Wheels. The new BMO is a tier one convention centre - targeting international visitors (such as the 30,000 Rotarians from around the world who are expected in 2025). Rotary will be Calgary’s largest ever Convention bringing in 60-80 million dollars to our economy.. That would not have happened without this building. Yes, it is a game changer.
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Any other big ones booked beyond that? I hope it gets utlized, and we don't end up in a situation similar to Halifax, who opened their new big convention centre in 2017:
huddle.today

Halifax Convention Centre Will Lose $7.5 Million This Year - Huddle.Today

The next year is set to be a banner one for conventions in Halifax but the Halifax Convention Centre (HCH) will still cost the city millions of dollars.
huddle.today
 
Mountain Man said:
Well, typically the perimeter of a building is the street and that's where a restaurant should go as that's how most people will interact with a building. I would think it a worse business case to have that hidden somewhere inside a space than right at the street interface.
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Yes, but you don’t try to force a business into a space that cannot support it. Stampede Trail is being purpose built for restaurants and entertainment, so build there. Admittedly, I have no idea if Stampede Trail is going to succeed or not, but I can guarantee you 100% that a restaurant (or any other business) on the south side of BMO will fail. There is just zero business case to build there.

Here is just a short list of some of the issues: first, you will be competing against (the more pedestrian friendly, brighter, more inviting) Stampede Trail and/or 17th Avenue. Second, if the new event centre gets built (anywhere) the Saddledome will go down. Now, you lose that game day traffic. Let’s say the event centre goes in Vic Park. If you are not parking South of BMO, the restaurant is completely out of the way. On event days, the BEST case scenario is you are busy as shit for a couple of hours before an event (one seating), then crickets - because no one is going to try to park at the Stampede before, during, or after a Flames game (so they can go to go to a restaurant if they are not going to the game). There will be parking issues, not to mention the fact the Stampede can temporarily shut down the 17th Ave extension through the park any time they want. Restaurants are already a tough enough business. Why would anyone go into any business with so much against them right from the start?
 
MichaelS said:
Any other big ones booked beyond that? I hope it gets utlized, and we don't end up in a situation similar to Halifax, who opened their new big convention centre in 2017:
huddle.today

Halifax Convention Centre Will Lose $7.5 Million This Year - Huddle.Today

The next year is set to be a banner one for conventions in Halifax but the Halifax Convention Centre (HCH) will still cost the city millions of dollars.
huddle.today
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27 booked so far…. they are not all as large as Rotary of course but Calgary is in a different league than Halifax. BMO will be Canada’s second tier one space. Calgary‘s biggest challenge is accommodation.
 
403808 said:
Yes, but you don’t try to force a business into a space that cannot support it. Stampede Trail is being purpose built for restaurants and entertainment, so build there. Admittedly, I have no idea if Stampede Trail is going to succeed or not, but I can guarantee you 100% that a restaurant (or any other business) on the south side of BMO will fail. There is just zero business case to build there.

Here is just a short list of some of the issues: first, you will be competing against (the more pedestrian friendly, brighter, more inviting) Stampede Trail and/or 17th Avenue. Second, if the new event centre gets built (anywhere) the Saddledome will go down. Now, you lose that game day traffic. Let’s say the event centre goes in Vic Park. If you are not parking South of BMO, the restaurant is completely out of the way. On event days, the BEST case scenario is you are busy as shit for a couple of hours before an event (one seating), then crickets - because no one is going to try to park at the Stampede before, during, or after a Flames game (so they can go to go to a restaurant if they are not going to the game). There will be parking issues, not to mention the fact the Stampede can temporarily shut down the 17th Ave extension through the park any time they want. Restaurants are already a tough enough business. Why would anyone go into any business with so much against them right from the start?
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The new arena will go on the block north of the Saddledome, so they won't lose game day traffic. Even if CSEC tries pushing other options, there really isn't a good spot that shovel ready.

The point about competing with Stampede Trail is kinda moot as this is on the same street. If developments turn their back on the street then nobody will come the extra couple blocks south, if they embrace the street then this would just be a continuation of the high street Stampede Trail promises to be. Parking issues will exist whether there is retail or not, it's a downtown high street with limited parking options. Stephen Ave, 17th, 4St and all the other urban high streets do fine without ample parking.
 
I think they paid too much attention to what the building will look like in the skyline and not enough to how it interfaces with the City. The east and SW edges of the building should contain at least some retail space or a provision for future conversion to retail. Instead we have a monolithic wall and I believe less retail space than we had in that spot previously (RIP Cantina).
 
I’ve never been a huge fan on the design. It’s definitely an imposing building that feels closed off (not nearly enough windows - hopefully the view of the skyline out is better than the view in), but I also don’t hate the design, and the executed product seems to be fairly close to the renderings.

The worst part of the building may not be its design, but its location/surrounding. If you look at some of the better convention centres in the country, they benefit from their surroundings. Convention centres in Vancouver, Ottawa, and hell even Edmonton benefit from their natural surroundings.

It’s nearly impossible to make a convention centre (arena, stadium, etc.) not feel imposing when it’s surrounded by parking lots.

It’s been said here many times, but I’ll say it again - the Stampede grounds need to undergo a fulsome reorganization and landscaping. There needs to be consistency in hardscaping, with intuitive pathways. Parking lots should be exiled to the boundaries of the grounds (do we need to maintain asphalt for a 10-day midway). The interaction of the grounds with the river needs to be improved (better pathways/connections).
 
MichaelS said:
Any other big ones booked beyond that? I hope it gets utlized, and we don't end up in a situation similar to Halifax, who opened their new big convention centre in 2017:
huddle.today

Halifax Convention Centre Will Lose $7.5 Million This Year - Huddle.Today

The next year is set to be a banner one for conventions in Halifax but the Halifax Convention Centre (HCH) will still cost the city millions of dollars.
huddle.today
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In 2019 the Telus Convention Centre received a $2.3 million operating subsidy from the city and I think their lease isn’t capital recovery. So yeah. Like comparable to the Halifax subsidy.
 
Regarding the retail, it would be nice to have some retail, but I don’t think it’s necessary. I’ve been to a few convention centres in my days, and retail is usually a minor focus in the convention centre.
The retail is usually on adjacent streets and in this case, the retail along 17th will build up nicely once that entrance and new station is completed. There will be some retail along Stampede Trail as well.
A good comparison for us is San Diego’s convention center, it sits adjacent to busy Harbour Drive and the LRT with a main entrance off of fifth Avenue that crosses Harbour and the LRT. Much like the way 17th Avenue will cross McLeod and LRT into the park.
There is a little to no retail at the convention center itself, everybody goes up Fifth Avenue or down around the Petco park area for their retail/ resto experience.
 
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