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[CalgaryTiger]

An interesting proposal out of Ottawa for their Lansdowne Park redevelopment - posting here as it's an example of a sports/entertainment district with both large facilities, many large events. Article here:

Lansdowne decisions put hockey arena move in spotlight​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/landsdowne-hockey-arena-development-1.6854698

From an design and site evolution perspective, Lansdowne is applicable to our debates on Stampede Park's issues and also Foothill Athletic Park redevelop if that ever comes to fruition. In particular, I like Ottawa's example for it's ability to contain itself within the site, an appreciation for mixed use and retail development, and progressively add more intensive uses within the same footprint - while keeping the ability to host larger scale events. Lansdowne also managed to do all this while losing all it's surface parking despite no proximity to rapid transit.

Background:
Lansdowne Park is located in central Ottawa, along a popular Bank Street and The Glebe neighbourhood, sitting in the curve of the Rideau Canal. It's a different vintage of city than Calgary but the local geography and vibe is somewhat similar to our Mission neighbourhood and it's relationship to the city centre, the river and Stampede Park. Lots of cafes and restaurants, high degree of walkability, a little over a century old. The neighbourhood and the exhibition ground

Other similarities - both exhibition areas have sports and entertainment district companies with connections into the local political space, both examples have hoovered up substantial public investment over their 100+ year history. Both have had substantial parts of their history as a horse-racing track and other exhibition uses (Lansdowne had stock-car racing for a while, for example). And of course, both Stampede and Lansdowne have had endless public debate on the degree in which the public should be investing in these area, and if there's a better use for both the funds available and the space itself. Both have been criticized for being empty wastelands when an event is not on and taking up valuable inner city real estate to the benefit of few.

Of course, Stampede Park and Lansdowne aren't completely the same (Stampede is a larger event than those typically hosted at Lansdown, Stampede Park is about 2x larger, and Stampede has multiple rapid transit stations in close proximity, for examples). Butt from a design and site master plan perspective, Lansdowne has lots of lessons on how to convert an under-utilized surface parking lot exhibition grounds into something more woven into the neighbourhood - without destroying it.



~2011 ish, right before redevelopment:

View attachment 494625

Current build out - includes a cineplex, Whole Foods, 1,000 stall underground parking garage, many acres of new greenspace for outdoor events.
View attachment 494628
Future proposal - adding 1,200 units of housing. According to the article, 90% of the property taxes from these units will be used as debt repayment for the improvements to the park. The 5,500 seat OHL team arena is located in the eastern endzone, with the grass roof.
View attachment 494626

To my knowledge, despite substantial public investments, Ottawa didn't need to make any weird deals to pay for surface parking replacements nearby. It also didn't spend half-a-century slowly destabilizing and replacing The Glebe neighbourhood to accommodate future expansion of the exhibition area. The result is an attractive urban neighbourhood bustling with shops and retail, plus an entertainment district and lots events and green space.

We absolutely could have a better Stampede Park - and better urban environment around it - if we wanted to.

This is the issue with the Stampede as a stand-alone entity: Although they do a lot for the community, which no one is denying, they're all about the Stampede. If they looked outside themselves, in the physical sense they would be able to be a true city and region building entity. That is what they've missed. There should be nothing wrong with wanting better from them. The actual event is so much bigger than what's on the grounds, I'd like to see them try to capitalize on this next opportunity: Stampede Trail. There's opportunity there.

 

[CBBarnett]

The private developers most of the site was long term leased to built a 1000 car parkade as part of the retail development, plus were allowed to divide off land to build condos (with parking) to help pay for phase one. Sounds like one could call that a weird deal

This new phase involves more public land being turned over permanently to support rebuilding half the stadium and replacing the hockey arena with one 1/2th the size.

It helps that Ottawa's equivalent of a fair is much smaller. The midway fair equivalent is held out past the Ottawa airport.

Anyways no free lunch.

No indeed - at least the urban design and integration outcomes have been realized in Ottawa though.

 

[UrbanWarrior]

Lansdowne Park is a serious success story for sure, but it’s like a quarter the size of Stampede Park and the ownership has nowhere near the influence in Ottawa as the Stampede does here. It’s something that can be emulated, and that pretty much is the plan here, but currently only half (or less) of the of Stampede Park parking will be converted to…. not an asphalt shithole.

 

[CBBarnett]

Lansdowne Park is a serious success story for sure, but it’s like a quarter the size of Stampede Park and the ownership has nowhere near the influence in Ottawa as the Stampede does here. It’s something that can be emulated, and that pretty much is the plan here, but currently only half (or less) of the of Stampede Park parking will be converted to…. not an asphalt shithole.

But it’s not “pretty much the plan here”, see your last statement. There is no real plan here, at least no plan that doesn’t think that at least 20 hectares or so should be left as surface parking.

We are spending several times the amount (public dollars) as Ottawa. We (so far) have yielded nothing close to the outcomes from a design and integration outcomes that Lansdowne Park has achieved and is planning to enhance further.

And I’m sure Lansdowne redevelopment is hardly a world-beater either - there’s likely dozens of scandals and schemes under the surface - but that surface is at least competent urban design that adds to an area.

Of course - we are full of many excuses, as we always have about Stampede Park. It’s complicated, politics is hard, the site is too big, it’s good enough already, stampede is “doing their best”, let’s go east in them because they “do a lot for the community” etc.

But come on - it’s been 100 years of sales pitches and snake oil. The grounds sucks - it’s a giant concrete wasteland with a scattering of randomly shaped buildings each with incredible public subsidy, terrible utilization and individually poor site planning.

Forgetting the recent past where the influence of the Stampede literally destroyed thousands of homes, direct and indirectly, over a few decades, what is its vision of the future?

Apart from a few shiny buildings, is there even a master plan for the grounds?

I know Victoria Park has a plan, but nothing public for the grounds itself. Any sort of evolution planned? Or is business so good why change mentality entrenched? 30 years from now, in 2053(!), will we still be debating surface parking lots?

Lansdowne is a reminder It doesn’t have to be this way - we can have a successful event district that isn’t a destroyer of its surroundings and is better integrated into the community to everyone’s benefit.

 

[MichaelS]

There is a plan for the grounds, developed by CMLC in partnership with the stampede (see my post about it a few pages ago). The problem is, implementation seems to be weak.

 

[Surrealplaces]

The private developers most of the site was long term leased to built a 1000 car parkade as part of the retail development, plus were allowed to divide off land to build condos (with parking) to help pay for phase one. Sounds like one could call that a weird deal

This new phase involves more public land being turned over permanently to support rebuilding half the stadium and replacing the hockey arena with one 1/2th the size.

It helps that Ottawa's equivalent of a fair is much smaller. The midway fair equivalent is held out past the Ottawa airport.

Anyways no free lunch.

The Ottawa fair (Supex I think it was called) was moved when they revamped Landsdown as there is no space for the fair, and then closed after Covid. It never re-opened iirc. After it moved it was a dud, so the closing of it is no surprise.

Ottawa did a great job revamping the area, but it's not really the same as the Stampede grounds in that there is only the stadium there, it's not an exhibition space. It's more of an urban redevelopment project that has a stadium.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

There is a plan for the grounds, developed by CMLC in partnership with the stampede (see my post about it a few pages ago). The problem is, implementation seems to be weak.

They plan, we laugh.

The Stampede grounds is a far greater opportunity. It can be both Lansdowne and a parking lot. The problem is, it's a parking lot.

 

[Surrealplaces]

But it’s not “pretty much the plan here”, see your last statement. There is no real plan here, at least no plan that doesn’t think that at least 20 hectares or so should be left as surface parking.

We are spending several times the amount (public dollars) as Ottawa. We (so far) have yielded nothing close to the outcomes from a design and integration outcomes that Lansdowne Park has achieved and is planning to enhance further.

And I’m sure Lansdowne redevelopment is hardly a world-beater either - there’s likely dozens of scandals and schemes under the surface - but that surface is at least competent urban design that adds to an area.

Of course - we are full of many excuses, as we always have about Stampede Park. It’s complicated, politics is hard, the site is too big, it’s good enough already, stampede is “doing their best”, let’s go east in them because they “do a lot for the community” etc.

But come on - it’s been 100 years of sales pitches and snake oil. The grounds sucks - it’s a giant concrete wasteland with a scattering of randomly shaped buildings each with incredible public subsidy, terrible utilization and individually poor site planning.

Forgetting the recent past where the influence of the Stampede literally destroyed thousands of homes, direct and indirectly, over a few decades, what is its vision of the future?

Apart from a few shiny buildings, is there even a master plan for the grounds?

I know Victoria Park has a plan, but nothing public for the grounds itself. Any sort of evolution planned? Or is business so good why change mentality entrenched? 30 years from now, in 2053(!), will we still be debating surface parking lots?

Lansdowne is a reminder It doesn’t have to be this way - we can have a successful event district that isn’t a destroyer of its surroundings and is better integrated into the community to everyone’s benefit.

I like what Ottawa did for Lansdowne but in order to do the same here would pretty much require moving the Stampede and not using the area as an exhibition space . A good comparison would be Bridgeland where they removed the hospital and the land was redeveloped into an urban neighborhood. In Ottawa's case the only difference from a place like Bridgeland is they kept the stadium. We could do the same here if it was only the arena.

 

[trtcttc]

While I always found it odd that there's such a big piece of real estate downtown dedicated to 10 days a year, the area is large enough that there's no need to move the Stampede for at least 20 years. If the arena deal is approved, with the 6th street underpass, there's plenty of space for development from the rail tracks down to Agricultural trail (where the Saddledome is) for at least a decade plus. With the Green Line (if they build the North and South portions) servicing the area directly, parking should become less of a concern.

 

[MissingMiddle]

Ottawa did a great job revamping the area, but it's not really the same as the Stampede grounds in that there is only the stadium there, it's not an exhibition space. It's more of an urban redevelopment project that has a stadium.

Ottawa has both the Aberdeen Pavilion for fairs, and hosts the CityFolk Music Festival at Lansdowne Park. Both of which are admittedly smaller than the Stampede, but excellent in their own right, and not a parking lot.

A criticism of Lansdowne is that it still allows traffic, and the public realm is rather cold and sterile. But they do close the streets to traffic during major events like Redblacks games, where each ticket includes a transit pass.

I imagine Stampede could accomplish something similar, but on a much larger scale, should they ever actually have a vision. I doubt they will.

 

[Surrealplaces]

While I always found it odd that there's such a big piece of real estate downtown dedicated to 10 days a year, the area is large enough that there's no need to move the Stampede for at least 20 years. If the arena deal is approved, with the 6th street underpass, there's plenty of space for development from the rail tracks down to Agricultural trail (where the Saddledome is) for at least a decade plus. With the Green Line (if they build the North and South portions) servicing the area directly, parking should become less of a concern.

It's not just 10 days a year though, and that's part of the issue. As someone mentioned in another post, the space is a hybrid type use. The Stampede runs for 10 days, but the other buildings on site run year round. If not for the Stampede 10 day event, they could make the grounds more efficient by not needing as much space as they have, but there are still 4 buildings on site (arena, BMO space, Agriculture pavilion, Big 4) with active uses year round, and quite often more than 1 building in use at once.

Personally, I'd like to see better use of the space, but I think trying to make the Stampede grounds a better urban environment is a lost cause. It is what it is, and won't likely ever change. There are still plenty of empty lots and areas around the city that need developing, including the non-Stampede portion of Victoria Park, or the railtown parcels, etc..

 

[Mountain Man]

I think they should try and host more Cirque du Soleil type events there, the grounds are always buzzing when that's going on.

 

[Surrealplaces]

Ottawa has both the Aberdeen Pavilion for fairs, and hosts the CityFolk Music Festival at Lansdowne Park. Both of which are admittedly smaller than the Stampede, but excellent in their own right, and not a parking lot.

A criticism of Lansdowne is that it still allows traffic, and the public realm is rather cold and sterile. But they do close the streets to traffic during major events like Redblacks games, where each ticket includes a transit pass.

I imagine Stampede could accomplish something similar, but on a much larger scale, should they ever actually have a vision. I doubt they will.

Agreed. They are good in their own right and true, much smaller than the Stampede buildings. The Aberdeen Pavilion's footprint is only 39k sq ft, and would host different kinds of events then the Big Four at 82K sq ft or the Ag Pavilion 104K sq ft. Ottawa saw what what make a good use of the space at Lansdowne and executed it well.

The problem with the Stampede park is it's like a Swiss army knife. It's designed to be able to cover multiple uses which makes it inefficient from the get-go. For me, I think Calgary has other parcels of land that are less efficient and are in more need of development. Places like the lands north of the grounds, or along the train tracks, or West Village. The rest of East Village...places that would be much easier to develop than the Stampede grounds and are actually used less. One thing about the Stampede grounds is the land is active year round.

That said, with a new arena coming onto the grounds, an effort should be made to make sure it integrates nicely to its northern surroundings. Given the money we're putting in, we should have some say in that.

 

[MichaelS]

I wouldn't expect the entirety of the Stampede grounds to be redeveloped, but I think the big expection was from 12th Avenue to 17th Avenue, Stampede Trail was to be a very vibrant, mixed-used street. An Entertainment District, if you will. If the thought process is now, well, there is enough gravel lots throughout the area that we can use to create a vibrant community, no need to worry about making Stampede Trail the festival street as per the plan, then why are we spending literally hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars on those lands? That is what is so frustrating to me. Part of the sales pitch to justify the excessive tax dollars was the redevelopment of this area, into the new entertainment district. If the outcome is just what was going to happen with private development as guided by the Beltline ARP with minimal public investment, then why did we extend CMLCs mandate by a further 20 years and throw in a ton more money?

 

[403808]

I wouldn't expect the entirety of the Stampede grounds to be redeveloped, but I think the big expection was from 12th Avenue to 17th Avenue, Stampede Trail was to be a very vibrant, mixed-used street. An Entertainment District, if you will.

Stampede Trail redevelopment starts soon.