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Urban Development and Proposals Discussion

The Q comes back to, is it less than a rebuilt grandstand and a rebuilt McMahon.
The issue with McMahon is it has a single funder, the province. The Grandstand seems to have better bones than McMahon.

The Stampede needs a new infield stand of some kind; it is challenging to get a ticket to the rodeo unless you buy early.
 
McMahon can have the exact same funding stack. Nothing prevents the feds, or the city or CSEC contributing money to it.
If I'm the city, if I'm funding anything at McMahon, I want ownership in that you get to control what happens with the area around the stadium.

In the Livewire article Farkas mentions there needing to be recreational opportunities for them to fund anything whether at McMahon or GMC Stadium. Also, the Stampede CEO talking about maintaining the track throughout the year under a playing surface seems a bit delusional. They were able to rebuild the track pretty quickly after the flood, I'm sure they can build a proper track for the Stampede without needing to maintain one year-round. Those field tray systems in Europe the CEO mentions would be prohibitively expensive.
 
If I'm the city, if I'm funding anything at McMahon, I want ownership in that you get to control what happens with the area around the stadium.
What would the city accomplish with this control? The university will eventually build it up when the market is ready.

In the Livewire article Farkas mentions there needing to be recreational opportunities for them to fund anything whether at McMahon or GMC Stadium.
Yeah, a bubble I'd bet. A minimal cost thing to have some extra public benefit.

Those field tray systems in Europe the CEO mentions would be prohibitively expensive.
Would they be? Compared to a 2016 minimal renovation cost for McMahon at $90 million?
 
Having a football stadium on the grounds would still not solve the biggest problem with McMahon, no concerts. I'd rather they just massively renovate McMahon and have a full bowl stadium that can have concerts. Also, imagine the traffic in the area on one of the days there is a football and a hockey game at the same time!
 
What would the city accomplish with this control? The university will eventually build it up when the market is ready.
Agreed. I don't think the city actually wants/needs more giant plots to develop. They have space for the fieldhouse. To take on McMahon renovation plus the build out of the surrounding area would be a massive undertaking and while lots of mitigating factors, East Village vs University District, there's a clear winner and who's better at building a community.
Would they be? Compared to a 2016 minimal renovation cost for McMahon at $90 million?

The Real Madrid renovation was about $2.1B CAD. It was grouped in with other renovation costs and top Euro league soccer vs Stampede, the quality doesn't need to be as high here. But a true retractable system would run over $100M for sure.

 
What would the city accomplish with this control? The university will eventually build it up when the market is ready.


Yeah, a bubble I'd bet. A minimal cost thing to have some extra public benefit.


Would they be? Compared to a 2016 minimal renovation cost for McMahon at $90 million?
The control I'm talking about with McMahon is more to do with the prospective fieldhouse, and the ability to integrate Mcmahon into that as a recreation asset, not to do with the competency of building out the parking lots. I can't argue the city would do better at that.

To entertain the tray idea... you could have a tray field system that isn't as high-tech that breaks apart into pieces that can be towed by the tractor they move the Evening Show stage with and can be reassembled on the north portion of the infield of the track during Stampede and host the large patio or something else. Pretty low-tech but I think it would work. You could even leave the field in the north infield and buddle it in the winter to open the track and rodeo area to other uses. It isn't a stretch to have a parking lot to the east of the infield Grandstand that users of the buddle field could park at in the winter. That same parking lot could be used for tailgating during the football season. We'll see what happens. Crazy both McMahon and the Grandstand get 20 days of proper use throughout the year.

Also one thing I felt was missing from the new 20-year plan: A skyride/gondola that could run from Erlton Station to the Calgary Live/Scotia Place area and then another run from there to Grand Central. It's not something you'd need to run all the time but could be handy during events.
 
Agreed. I don't think the city actually wants/needs more giant plots to develop. They have space for the fieldhouse. To take on McMahon renovation plus the build out of the surrounding area would be a massive undertaking and while lots of mitigating factors, East Village vs University District, there's a clear winner and who's better at building a community.
On a 50-100 year timeline we could definitely use more giant plots, especially adjacent to transit lines. This one would be pretty close to West Village, but I'm not sure what other big plots we'll have in the second half of this century?

Bottom line for me is that there is a pretty big opportunity cost with McMahon lands (even if not immediately), but no opportunity cost at all for the Grandstand infield.
 
I think it has to be a mix of everything that has been proposed...

Ground level: A true public living room called "Stephen Avenue Commons"
Use the arcade edge as Calgary’s weather-protected promenade and fill that strip with uses that create “reasons to go” beyond shopping:
An experimental pop-up food hall + micro-retail (Leonard-like variety, but indoors): multiple small, more affordable spaces. You wouldn't be competing with anyone else downtown.
Experience-focused anchors at the corners (cafe; bar; showcase space for satellite post-secondary campus (read on))
A daily-programmed event spine: markets, mini-concerts, winter festival tie-ins, Indigenous makers weekends

Mid-levels (2–4): Education, innovation (Platform-like), and culture
Use these floors to drive daytime foot traffic:
Isn't CBE looking for more learning spaces? Could get them involved or could always go with a post-secondary satellite campus like AUA, SAIT or continuing education like Bow Valley College, can connect them with innovators in an incubation space
You can leverage those campuses for workforce training (digital skills, trades-adjacent programs, newcomer employment bridging)
Find education streams that could tie into the showcase space (exhibits, demos, “see what we're doing”)

Upper levels (5–6, and you could do something on the roof): Housing that brings people to the property at night
Use a couple floors for residential or even a hotel:
Use the large floor plate to your advantage, create a central space (with light wells, similar to what Glenbow just did) that shrinks the floor plate left over for mixed-income rentals
You could even include a student housing component or boutique hotel.
Add in a top floor or rooftop restaurant and event space (weddings, conferences, civic receptions), could also incorporate a rooftop garden (greenhouse-style), there would be some cool views of the city year-round

If you can break the floors and floor plate up and use incremental leasing, you don't need to eat an elephant in one bite. It will have to be a public–private partnership, especially if you're doing micro-retail and a hotel. It is important to not try and do everything right away, this can be a phased plan (so it doesn’t sit empty for years as the refined plan comes together)
Phase 0 (0–6 months): “In the meantime use” activation
Pop-ups (like River Hall but indoors (next winter): markets, art installations, social games space), it doesn't have to cost a lot but will get people in the door and using the space while the subsequent phases are refined.

Phase 1: Ground level
Get the ground-level “Commons” open first (fastest visible win).
Phase 2: Education floors
Bring in the weekday engine and these space could require less work than the housing or hotel.
Phase 3: Housing/hotel floors and rooftop
Finish with the components that will take the most work, by this time the building has momentum, and people will want to live or stay here.
Have you sent a bill to the City for all your design work?
 
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That amphitheatre would be really cool - it looks like they are using the PNE Amphitheatre as a placeholder which is under construction in Vancouver right now: View attachment 722987
Make the roof structure saddle shaped (as a monument to the Saddledome) and this is perfect.
That PNE amphitheatre has gone waaaay over budget BTW.
 
“We talked about the Stampeders, and I said, ‘The stadium has passed its shelf life.’ I don’t think that’s a surprise to anybody, and the reality is that we only play there 10 games a year, and so it has to be a stadium that is going to be, in my opinion, anyway, city-led,” he said.

I really hope they can figure this out to make it feasible to make this happen.
To my mind it’s either a field tray over the track or a track built over the field during the Stampede.
 
Having a football stadium on the grounds would still not solve the biggest problem with McMahon, no concerts. I'd rather they just massively renovate McMahon and have a full bowl stadium that can have concerts. Also, imagine the traffic in the area on one of the days there is a football and a hockey game at the same time!
The concerts thing as I understand it is the surrounding community, so any renovation other than perhaps replacing it with a full dome would still raise issues.

But also, stadium concerts are really not that much of a thing; we'd be lucky to get 2 a year. Nice to have, especially if you like metal and need to get your prostate checked, but not something to drop a billion dollars of infrastructure on.
 

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