Alberta Provincial Politics

[CalgaryTiger]

The idea of accommodations for people isn't to get them through, it is asking the question, how can I make them successful?

In primary school, I was never identified as having an issue beyond the fact that I was a problem in class. I got through, graduated high school and went on to post-secondary. Eventually, with the higher pressures of that environment, I broke.

The problem is I wasn't given tools to be successful; I could survive but I couldn't thrive. Anyways, once I broke, I went away and built back better, understanding what tools I needed. I ended up graduating and being valedictorian.

The issue with underfunding support is that you're underfunding your future work force, you're spitting out people who can just survive if they do make it through and not people who can thrive. We have an educated population but think how much better we could be doing. There's no better money spent than on a high-quality education system. At this point, it is still people driving economies, it's the classic thing that it is cheaper to keep the people you develop versus recruiting and then redeveloping someone.

 

[O-tac]

I fully agree CalgaryTiger. I was in a similar boat as yourself. The irony is that many of the most highly paid and successful engineers, artists, CEO's, doctors and other professionals are not neuro typical.

Unfortunately our Premier is a former school board trustee who pushed to lower qualifications for support workers for the severely disabled. She was thrown out of her position in disgrace and clearly has had an axe to grind ever since. This government has flirted with eugenics in some of their musings. If things continue on this path I fully expect RFK Jr. level disinformation and databases. What they are doing to people on AISH is disgraceful.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

We make fun of Quebec but we're as much of a joke as they are. The amount of time and money wasted trying to satisfy a minority of people is just funny at this point.

Little can be done about the referendum questions, and even what could be done would be very unfriendly to businesses so there's no way the UCP would actually do it. I'd like to see some chambers of commerce and businesses call that out.

I don't know why the people behind these movements like Take Back Alberta don't call out these things for what they are, a waste that won't actually change anything. It should upset those groups that Smith takes them on walks down a garden path to then turnaround and make their lives a little worse. The Healthcare and Education changes they've made hurt rural and suburban people who are the ones she's trying to satisfy. Yet they just go along and eat their shit sandwich. These Albertans that don't get jobs they want because businesses hire temporary workers, but they could probably fit on a bus. If there are any jobs that are lost to foreign workers, it is offshore outsourcing.

 

[trtcttc]

You can look up the report from the:
View attachment 716471
the Rowell-Sirois Commission. The main report runs about 800 pages. (or you can accept that by not blowing up the system, our various governments since then have accepted that the recommendations were sound, even if implemented in an incomplete way (the report recommended an Australian style system, but that was unacceptable to Ontario and Quebec as the rich provinces of the day)).

16 separate studies were commissioned for the commission (or rather, 16 have been digitized and are searchable). 427 briefs were submitted according to the list of exhibits, not including those from individuals.

Once every province was taxing again in 1962 (there was an interim period when Quebec was collecting taxes before that to try to force the federal government to stop), the federal government commissioned another royal commission to reset the federal taxation system which ran another 4 years, the Carter Commission. 31 studies were commissioned by it that are searchable. The report is so in-depth the press releases summarizing the conclusions are 187 pages alone.

Again, I'm not saying studies are not done, but the studies don't address the question you posed. The first paragraph of that summary says an equity based system, which is probably ideal and good for the country as a whole, which I've repeatedly said but that is not the question you posed with surgeries. It does not study that by converging services and population to the "rich" provinces, that it is bad for those provinces. A NB moving to AB for better services is bad for NB and maybe on net for Canada, but there is no evidence that says that is bad for AB. You can replace the provinces with Ontario and PEI, it's the same thing.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

there is no evidence that says that is bad for AB.

"Alberta is Calling" but hoping only the right kind of people answer. You wouldn't want someone moving here who needs surgery, you want young healthy people who have decades of income taxes in front of them. And honestly that is what has been happening. If you looks at stats, it is mostly interprovincial migration that has driven our population increase. BC and Ontario still receive a lot of the international immigration. Now, maybe all the people moving to Alberta are not the right people, in that they become a burden on the Healthcare system, but the benefits of migration are well documented, especially in a country where people count of CPP and OES.

 

[darwink]

Again, I'm not saying studies are not done, but the studies don't address the question you posed. The first paragraph of that summary says an equity based system, which is probably ideal and good for the country as a whole, which I've repeatedly said but that is not the question you posed with surgeries. It does not study that by converging services and population to the "rich" provinces, that it is bad for those provinces. A NB moving to AB for better services is bad for NB and maybe on net for Canada, but there is no evidence that says that is bad for AB. You can replace the provinces with Ontario and PEI, it's the same thing.

Sigh. A study of service provision versus paying for it is exactly what you want. The big issue at the time was funding relief, to stop mobile bands of unemployed moving to places that could afford more relief. But they did talk about health a lot. Health, unusually for us now, was examined in the municipal finance section, and addressed in how moving from horses to trains and then automobiles changed the character of what a service of local concern was as people for the first time were mobile, and meant that people could move to seek services outside of where they paid taxes.

Two of the issue papers went a bit deeper on health/municipal services Public assistance and social insurance : a study prepared for the Royal Commission on Dominion-Provincial Relations / by A.E. Grauer and Municipal finance in Canada : a study prepared for the Royal Commission on Dominion-Provincial Relations / by H. Carl Goldenberg.

The conclusions on health for those that might be interested:

Spoiler: Health info

The problem:
"The health expenditures, and hence the health activities, of provincial governments, moreover, vary considerably. The primary reason for these variations is the difference in the fiscal positions of the provinces. The result is, however, that there are grave differences in health conditions, and notably in the death rate from such diseases as tuberculosis and from infant and maternal mortality."

Universal service levels needed:
"Further, under the division of function in the public health field which we have recommended, expansion in provincial and municipal expenditures is likely to be proportionately much greater than in those of the Dominion . Hitherto there have been wide differences in the financial ability of the provinces to supply welfare services. Moreover, in some provinces, and notably Quebec, religious organizations and private charitable associations have provided services which, in other provinces, were wholly or almost wholly state functions . For these and other reasons there have been wide differences in provincial expenditures, in the proportion of expenditures which the provinces compelled the municipalities to carry, and in the quality of state services. In the interests of national unity it is highly desirable that every province should be able to provide these services in accordance with average Canadian standards ."

How to fund them:
"These desirable conditions might be attained in either of two ways : the provinces might be assisted by Dominion grants-in-aid (apportioned in accordance with provincial needs) for particular provincial services, or every province might be put in a fiscal position to determine its own policies and to finance its own services in accordance with its own peculiar needs."

"The Commission's Financial Plan, by improving the position of all provinces on current account, should make more possible than heretofore provincial expenditures on health insurance."

The intent:
"Our financial recommendations aim to place every province in a position to finance its own social welfare program in accordance with average Canadian standards"

"Dominion assistance of this sort might be a means of improving, or co-ordinating, or equalizing particular provincial services."

 

[darwink]

I don't know why the people behind these movements like Take Back Alberta don't call out these things for what they are, a waste that won't actually change anything.

They don't care. They're separatists who only care about creating the infrastructure for independence, whether in public opinion or public administration.

 

[trtcttc]

Sigh. A study of service provision versus paying for it is exactly what you want. The big issue at the time was funding relief, to stop mobile bands of unemployed moving to places that could afford more relief. But they did talk about health a lot. Health, unusually for us now, was examined in the municipal finance section, and addressed in how moving from horses to trains and then automobiles changed the character of what a service of local concern was as people for the first time were mobile, and meant that people could move to seek services outside of where they paid taxes.

Two of the issue papers went a bit deeper on health/municipal services Public assistance and social insurance : a study prepared for the Royal Commission on Dominion-Provincial Relations / by A.E. Grauer and Municipal finance in Canada : a study prepared for the Royal Commission on Dominion-Provincial Relations / by H. Carl Goldenberg.

The conclusions on health for those that might be interested:

Spoiler: Health info

View attachment 716622
The problem:
"The health expenditures, and hence the health activities, of provincial governments, moreover, vary considerably. The primary reason for these variations is the difference in the fiscal positions of the provinces. The result is, however, that there are grave differences in health conditions, and notably in the death rate from such diseases as tuberculosis and from infant and maternal mortality."

Universal service levels needed:
"Further, under the division of function in the public health field which we have recommended, expansion in provincial and municipal expenditures is likely to be proportionately much greater than in those of the Dominion . Hitherto there have been wide differences in the financial ability of the provinces to supply welfare services. Moreover, in some provinces, and notably Quebec, religious organizations and private charitable associations have provided services which, in other provinces, were wholly or almost wholly state functions . For these and other reasons there have been wide differences in provincial expenditures, in the proportion of expenditures which the provinces compelled the municipalities to carry, and in the quality of state services. In the interests of national unity it is highly desirable that every province should be able to provide these services in accordance with average Canadian standards ."

How to fund them:
"These desirable conditions might be attained in either of two ways : the provinces might be assisted by Dominion grants-in-aid (apportioned in accordance with provincial needs) for particular provincial services, or every province might be put in a fiscal position to determine its own policies and to finance its own services in accordance with its own peculiar needs."

"The Commission's Financial Plan, by improving the position of all provinces on current account, should make more possible than heretofore provincial expenditures on health insurance."

The intent:
"Our financial recommendations aim to place every province in a position to finance its own social welfare program in accordance with average Canadian standards"

"Dominion assistance of this sort might be a means of improving, or co-ordinating, or equalizing particular provincial services."

“In the interests of national unity it is highly desirable that every province should be able to provide these services in accordance with average Canadian standards“

I do not disagree with this at all, but again this is looking at national interest. We can say equalizing services is good for the nation and therefore we should do it. But the studies you mentioned does not say if it is better for Ontario or whichever the “have” provinces are to provide these services. Is it in the interest of Ontario to provision services for New Brunswick through equalization? Or is it better for Ontario that every person moves there in pursuit of better living standards?

 

[trtcttc]

"Alberta is Calling" but hoping only the right kind of people answer. You wouldn't want someone moving here who needs surgery, you want young healthy people who have decades of income taxes in front of them. And honestly that is what has been happening. If you looks at stats, it is mostly interprovincial migration that has driven our population increase. BC and Ontario still receive a lot of the international immigration. Now, maybe all the people moving to Alberta are not the right people, in that they become a burden on the Healthcare system, but the benefits of migration are well documented, especially in a country where people count of CPP and OES.

The migration makeup is just not true. Interprovincial is up, but the vast majority of in-migration is international. For all the talk of interprovincial migration, it is a fraction of international

Our current federal health coverage for asylum seekers (including those that are charged with extortion in Surrey and then claimed asylum) includes vision and dental, more than what is afforded most Canadians. The Federal government sensibly introduced a small co-pay for those services. Yet it is somehow outrageous for Alberta to seek a referendum on limiting coverage for some international migrants. Immigration is federal jurisdiction, so they should shoulder the cost. Funny that on this point, Smith and Olivia Chow would agree.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/cbsa-15-foreigners-extortion-refugee-status-9.7013971

Chow says Toronto will face a $107M shortfall if feds don’t provide more funding for refugee supports

Toronto Mayor Olivia Chow is speaking out after recently learning that the federal government plans to only provide a quarter of the funding the city requires to cover the costs of providing interim housing for refugees and asylum seekers.

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[O-tac]

As someone who came to Alberta from evil commie Vancouver you should tread carefully with this line of reasoning. The net they are casting is wide enough that anyone not born in this province will be expected to have to pay for healthcare and social services in user fees, not just taxes.

 

[trtcttc]

As someone who came to Alberta from evil commie Vancouver you should tread carefully with this line of reasoning. The net they are casting is wide enough that anyone not born in this province will be expected to have to pay for healthcare and social services in user fees, not just taxes.

Criticize the policy, fine. But just making stuff up is the same as the gun lobby that fights any sensible gun control laws in the US because it may mean in some future all guns will be confiscated by the big bad government.

 

[O-tac]

Criticize the policy, fine. But just making stuff up is the same as the gun lobby that fights any sensible gun control laws in the US because it may mean in some future all guns will be confiscated by the big bad government.

It’s hard to think that you are arguing in good faith when you downplay everything the UCP does and pretend that those who are criticizing them are fear mongering and make false equivocations like comparisons to the NRA and gun advocates. Smith and her cabinet are openly stating they want people to pay for their healthcare out of pocket, that new Albertans are to blame for their own budget deficits and that their are supposed ‘real Albertans’ vs immigrants. You might not be classified as a ‘real’ one down the line after all the brown people are targeted. Smith doesn’t want any Albertans to have universal healthcare, let alone people from Vancouver! Her TBA, separatist base for whom these questions are designed certainly don’t like ‘your kind’.

 

[Red Star]

"Show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome"

Kids likely are over-coded for complexity simply because coding attracts resources. I'm unsure that educational assistants provide much value. My kids only attended school in Washington state, Utah, Texas, Hong Kong and Australia, places where there is no such thing as education assistants and where teacher compensation is generally much lower than in Alberta so I can only go on anecdotes. I have friends in AB who question whether classroom integration has gone too far and that some special needs kids (not all) need to be in separate classrooms guided by specialized teachers. Besides leading to better outcomes, it might actually be cheaper to have a classroom with one teacher covering 8 special needs kids than trying to integrate them in a regular classroom but require 4 education assistants. All of my AB friends with kids in private schools did so because they felt their special needs kids were being served by a public system that often seems motivated to chase more resources instead of better outcomes.

I think a lot of disorders such as ADHD and Anxiety are over diagnosed. Pharmaceutical companies want to sell more product and parents are more willing to give their kids iPads to calm them down instead of providing structure and discipline.

 

[CalgaryTiger]

It is always funny when people who have no lived experience start speaking like they know what it is like to go to school with an undiagnosed disorder.

No thank you for your input on something you have no authority to speak on.

Overdiagnoses isn't the problem you think it is. If only there was such a thing as kids getting too much help, what a tragedy that would be.

 

[trtcttc]

It’s hard to think that you are arguing in good faith when you downplay everything the UCP does and pretend that those who are criticizing them are fear mongering and make false equivocations like comparisons to the NRA and gun advocates. Smith and her cabinet are openly stating they want people to pay for their healthcare out of pocket, that new Albertans are to blame for their own budget deficits and that their are supposed ‘real Albertans’ vs immigrants. You might not be classified as a ‘real’ one down the line after all the brown people are targeted. Smith doesn’t want any Albertans to have universal healthcare, let alone people from Vancouver! Her TBA, separatist base for whom these questions are designed certainly don’t like ‘your kind’.

I actually voted for the NDP last election, but it's important to be able to distill issues aside from party labels. Is the referendum an attempt to change the conversation from low oil prices? Yes. Is it better if the government of the day focus on building out our economic diversity beyond just "put money in heritage fund (even though that is important)? Yes. But we have the government we have now and we do have to vote on the referendum and they can be good or bad on their own merits. The text of the questions are primarily concerning TFWs and non-permanent residents. It's not unusual for temporary workers to pay for their own healthcare. When I went to study abroad, I had to purchase insurance, is it really that outrageous to suggest people not permanently living here should have private insurance?

I'd argue we should have waiting periods for healthcare for all non-residents, including CDN citizens that live in foreign countries as non-resident for tax purposes. There's a huge Canadian diaspora around the world, and I don't think they should be allowed to spend their working years in the US/Hong Kong/ wherever, then come live here when they're 70 and cost the most. They should be eligible at some point but there should be a payback /waiting period for coverage.

Allowing some private practice -> nobody has public healthcare. Don't let certain high risk people have guns -> they'll come take all your guns. Nobody is losing universal coverage. I think what the government is doing now is too little supply side reforms (residency spots, training model changes), but nobody else seems to be trying anything except spending more and more and more. If you look at expert discussions of our health system, it is not the envy of the world Canadians used to think it is. If other provinces and/or the federal government wants to take a stab at reforming and updating the system, I'd love to hear it. But we do spend more and get less than many of our peer countries and there's structural issues there that we should resolve rather than just going more into debt and passing our healthcare costs to our children.