O-tac
Senior Member
I'm already seeing ai slop disinformation youtube videos posted by some not so bright relatives on FB about separation.
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Alberta Provincial Politics
- Thread starter Surrealplaces
- Start date
The whole separation thing is annoying. I get not everything is perfect with a centralized government 3,000 km away, but it is what it is. If Alberta was ever going to separate, it would have been most practical 50 years ago, and even then there still would have been issues. Today it's not doable or practical in any sense from a geography point of view, given access through other provinces for things like Pipelines, highways, railways, etc.. there's the issues of native treaty lands. We also have the issue of military support. Canada's military isn't a power house, but imagine if we separated. Who would ever stop us from being taken over by the US? Right now in these times it could actually happen. Then there's the whole outlook on oil and gas. How long is oil going to drive the economy? What happens to companies like CPKC, Westjet, etc..who are based here and suddenly aren't part of Canada?
Much like the maga folks to the south, The people who want to separate don't put much thought into long-term situations.
Much like the maga folks to the south, The people who want to separate don't put much thought into long-term situations.
Mountain Man
Senior Member
The thing that gets me about separation is all the people who think that federal taxes will just disappear and all the money we send to Ottawa will just stay in our pockets. Like we won't have to start providing all the federal services here instead... lol
trtcttc
Senior Member
On an absolute basis, we pay more per capital than most provinces. But we benefit by being part of the same regulatory framework, and easier to do business. Quebec takes on more governance itself, including not participating in the CPP and their taxes are much higher. A big limiting aspect of Europe's competitiveness compared to the US and China is just the amount of countries and regulations that exist and how each market, outside of Germany/France is too small.
O-tac
Senior Member
We pay more per capita because we are the wealthiest province. Equalization payments aren't some hidden tax directed at AB exclusively. They are distributed from income taxes. The conservative narrative that poisons every discussion about this topic is based on nothing but decades of mythical grievance and distrust of Ottawa. I find it hilarious that we were given mineral rights from Canada, were supported in the earlier days of confederation by equalization payments, yet now Alberta has become so arrogant and greedy that we are willing to say fuck you to the rest of Canada to try and become an American resource colony with less rights than before. It's absurd. As a lifelong Albertan, born into the most conservative riding in our Province (the one PP parachuted into) I have endured lectures my entire life about how ungrateful Eastern Canada is. I'm so tired of hearing it. It's Fox News level rage farming.
adamyyc
Senior Member
I’ve lived in Alberta for 8 years now and I still don’t understand how people indiscriminately vote for Conservative/UCP every election.
I get the whole Trudeau Sr. / Federalization thing, but that was a long time ago, and I still can’t wrap my head around how there aren’t more people who would identify themselves as “independent” or “undecided” and shift their voting intention election to election.
I get the whole Trudeau Sr. / Federalization thing, but that was a long time ago, and I still can’t wrap my head around how there aren’t more people who would identify themselves as “independent” or “undecided” and shift their voting intention election to election.
Roaring Flames
Senior Member
Former Conservative voter here that's lived their entire life here. They straight up indoctrine the whole western alienation / Liberals are crooks thing into you in school. I didn't understand that my own political ideals were left leaning until Trump first came in and I had a whole "are we the baddies?" moment of self-reflection.
darwink
Senior Member
To be fair the national energy program was a legitimate massive grievance. I say that as a long long time federal liberal.
trtcttc
Senior Member
We are the highest income and highest taxed province, but definitely not the wealthiest. Wealth =/= income. I don't think we were given mineral rights from Canada, mineral rights are provincial at confederation. And I don't think equalization itself is problematic, we should distribute wealth across provinces so living standards are somewhat comparable. The issue I have with it is the formula, that it doesn't adjust with oil price changes fast enough. It also essentially favours other forms of energy because hydro's benefits are less direct compared to straight up royalty payments, and there's no formula to include that benefit so Quebec ends up being the largest recipient of equalization, while their ministers try to put an emissions cap on 1 specific industry, which is completely antithetical to the cap and trade or carbon pricing system.
People do vote for the NDP provincially. Of course rural Alberta doesn't, but Edmonton also doesn't vote UCP. Historically it's looked uncompetitive, but with Wildrose/NDP/PC, the PC were the centre. Now that UCP has moved right, Calgary is becoming more split. I think that is a political system working and responding to changes.
And at a federal level, there's some ridings that flip, like Calgary Confederation, and Calgary Centre and a few others were close. I think the same can be said about Quebec/Atlantic Canada, that they default to the Liberals overwhelmingly, and you might flip a couple seats once in a while, but not meaningfully.
darwink
Senior Member
Provinces' not charging market rates for electricity via monopolies really distorts equalization by reducing GDP, tax power, and government direct revenue.
From a hydro quebec report:
Really hard to fix!
From a hydro quebec report:
Really hard to fix!
trtcttc
Senior Member
You could index the value of electricity as the Canada CPI electricity cost. And if they want to provide a subsidy to their population go ahead, but it shouldn't be distorted as being the market price and artificially lowering their resource potential. But of course, the cadres of Liberal Quebec MPs will never vote for that.
darwink
Senior Member
The Harper Conservatives didn't do it either. nor did Mulroney or Clark. The effect wouldn't change gripes from Alberta and instead would cause a large resource transfer from Quebec to Ontario, with Manitoba, PEI, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia benefiting the most per capita.
All at the expense of likely blowing up the country.
trtcttc
Senior Member
I didn't say it would be done with a Conservative government, but was mainly explaining that the gripes with the equalization formula isn't that people don't think we should share any of our resource wealth with our fellow Canadians (some on the extreme obviously do feel that way), but that the sharing right now is unfair, which is objectively true.
On balance, I don't think separation even remotely outweighs the benefit of being part of Canada. But having it be a conversation point isn't bad but it's a delicate balance. Without conservatives making noise about it, I don't think the MOU gets done, or it wouldn't be as high of a priority. But when the scales tip too far, you end up hurting yourself like Quebec did in the 70s/80s and Brexit. The challenge is once you get the ball rolling, it's not always possible to stop it.
O-tac
Senior Member
Particularly with American interference at an all time high and a belligerent POTUS who wants to invade us for oil.
Mountain Man
Senior Member
Not stoked to hear the separatist shitheads are meeting with Trump shitheads, what a crazy and nerve wracking time we live in. Maybe a move to BC is in my future...