Statscan numbers

[Surrealplaces]

September housing starts. Not too much out of the blue. Toronto picking up steam. Montreal had a decent month after mostly sluggish months. Vancouver a bit lower than normal, probably still back filling extra inventory. Ott/Gat still really sluggish, and has been for a long time. Population growth has been decent, but housing starts over the past two years are very low, I'm curious what the story is. Montreal has been up and down, and seems to be picking up, but one that that hasn't changed is the poor housing diversity with new builds. Nothing but apartments. Other than that, Edmonton, solid as usual.

City	SFH	semi	row	apartment	total
Toronto	361	6	417	2894	3678
Montreal	120	46	81	2363	2610
Calgary	635	216	293	1117	2261
Vancouver	215	136	108	1509	1968
Edmonton	547	120	239	877	1783
Ott/Gat	115	36	145	240	536

 

[Always_Biking]

Montreal’s an interesting case. Not much in the way of single-family homes, duplex, or row homes. Apartments are great, but as a city, I’d rather aspire to seeing missing more middle type homes and other housing choices.

 

[trtcttc]

Montreal’s an interesting case. Not much in the way of single-family homes, duplex, or row homes. Apartments are great, but as a city, I’d rather aspire to seeing missing more middle type homes and other housing choices.

I think "Apartment" in this context doesn't capture the difference in these types of housing. Toronto probably is mostly 40 storey plus buildings, Calgary a mix of 5+1 and highrises, but Montreal has a lot of low-rise apartments and much less SFHs. Many of these "apartment" starts are probably similar in scale to our row homes, but it's just not called that because not every unit has ground entrances.

 

[ByeByeBaby]

I think "Apartment" in this context doesn't capture the difference in these types of housing. Toronto probably is mostly 40 storey plus buildings, Calgary a mix of 5+1 and highrises, but Montreal has a lot of low-rise apartments and much less SFHs. Many of these "apartment" starts are probably similar in scale to our row homes, but it's just not called that because not every unit has ground entrances.

That's absolutely true in what Montreal has historically built, but not any more. I went on realtor.ca and there were around 825 units built in 2024 or newer; about 200 single detached and 600 apartments (using the search drop down). Here's some random examples of apartments, zooming into different areas and picking the newest listings that had a picture of the outside:

Île-des-Soeurs:​

Griffintown:

Ville-Marie (downtown)

Frontenac metro:

Little Italy - okay this one fits with historic Montreal vernacular but there's not many units in this area:

And then out in the suburbs in Laval:

and in Brossard:

 

[CBBarnett]

Montreal’s an interesting case. Not much in the way of single-family homes, duplex, or row homes. Apartments are great, but as a city, I’d rather aspire to seeing missing more middle type homes and other housing choices.

Housing supply is a cumulative exercise because even at very fast growth rates most houses already exist. Montreal doesn't build a ton of low-rise anymore, but they also don't have much land left and the economics that produced their plex system of small apartment blocks has changed dramatically over the past 125 years when they were most popular (just like anywhere really where the times keep on changing).

Below at 2021 numbers for Montreal and Calgary, I dropped some of the less important housing types. Montreal suburbs are excluded here, just the city only - that probably downplays the number of single homes as the suburbs have more, but for this analysis is it's not that important.

The main takeaway - while Monteal doesn't build a ton of low-rise anymore, they will always have such a weight and existing supply it will never feel like it. To contextualize just home much existing volume of low rise Montreal has in an unrealistic scenario, if Montreal never built another low rise unit and Calgary built 6,000 low rise a year (or about 500 a month as is the pace lately), we'd only reach their 2021 supply number of low rise in 2084, in time for Calgary's 200th anniversary!

Type, 2021 data	Calgary (city)	Calgary %	Montreal (city)	Montreal %
Single +Duplex	297,215​	59%​	165,630​	20%​
Low rise (Semi-detached, row, apartment under 5 storeys)	164,180​	33%​	516,335​	64%​
5+ Storeys	40,700​	8%​	130,615​	16%​
Total	502,095​	100%​	812,580​	100%​

 

[Always_Biking]

I think "Apartment" in this context doesn't capture the difference in these types of housing. Toronto probably is mostly 40 storey plus buildings, Calgary a mix of 5+1 and highrises, but Montreal has a lot of low-rise apartments and much less SFHs. Many of these "apartment" starts are probably similar in scale to our row homes, but it's just not called that because not every unit has ground entrances.

From what I’ve seen, all the apartment builds are either four or five story, low rise or high rises and almost virtually no row no homes and very few of the smaller multi-plex builds.

 

[kora]

I like the typology. 4 storey apartments have more in common with townhouses in terms of scale than 20 storey towers, yet townhouses and low rise apartments are often seen as radically different.

 

[Always_Biking]

Housing supply is a cumulative exercise because even at very fast growth rates most houses already exist. Montreal doesn't build a ton of low-rise anymore, but they also don't have much land left and the economics that produced their plex system of small apartment blocks has changed dramatically over the past 125 years when they were most popular (just like anywhere really where the times keep on changing).

Below at 2021 numbers for Montreal and Calgary, I dropped some of the less important housing types. Montreal suburbs are excluded here, just the city only - that probably downplays the number of single homes as the suburbs have more, but for this analysis is it's not that important.

The main takeaway - while Monteal doesn't build a ton of low-rise anymore, they will always have such a weight and existing supply it will never feel like it. To contextualize just home much existing volume of low rise Montreal has in an unrealistic scenario, if Montreal never built another low rise unit and Calgary built 6,000 low rise a year (or about 500 a month as is the pace lately), we'd only reach their 2021 supply number of low rise in 2084, in time for Calgary's 200th anniversary!

Type, 2021 data	Calgary (city)	Calgary %	Montreal (city)	Montreal %
Single +Duplex	297,215​	59%​	165,630​	20%​
Low rise (Semi-detached, row, apartment under 5 storeys)	164,180​	33%​	516,335​	64%​
5+ Storeys	40,700​	8%​	130,615​	16%​
Total	502,095​	100%​	812,580​	100%​

It’s a fair point about the economics, I get that in the city proper of Montreal there wouldn’t really be a reason to build a traditional row home.
The problem with that stats Canada number is they have one number for everything under five stories. About 90% of those low rises are three story apartment buildings. Or you see some single-family homes, but they are very expensive, it’s much more of a apartments or bust situation compared to Calgary.
I’m not necessarily criticizing Montreal for its past builds, but more that I like Calgary’s current housing diversity better than the diversity in Montreal.
Because we’re starting from the ground up replacing miles and miles of single-family homes we’ve got very good options, especially if somebody wants to buy a new build. In Calgary’s inner city you can pick SFH, row homes, duplexes or traditional apartment style.

 

[Always_Biking]

I like the typology. 4 storey apartments have more in common with townhouses in terms of scale than 20 storey towers, yet townhouses and low rise apartments are often seen as radically different.

I would respectfully disagree. I don’t really like the typology. At least in the case of the Montreal apartments, the three story, four story apartments in Montreal are still really just apartments. They’re not the row home style builds that we see here in Calgary with multi levels and a yard.

 

[CBBarnett]

The traditional 3 to 4 storey walkups of Montreal do a few other things right by having so many of them be zero-lot line and with limited (useless) setbacks in most places. The result is just a much more efficient density, that's higher but not necessarily taller or more oppressive feeling.

Combined with a healthy representation of mixed-use and retail, it's the recipe for a city and local economy that is sustainably dense and urban.

It’s a fair point about the economics, I get that in the city proper of Montreal there wouldn’t really be a reason to build a traditional row home.
The problem with that stats Canada number is they have one number for everything under five stories. About 90% of those low rises are three story apartment buildings. Or you see some single-family homes, but they are very expensive, it’s much more of a apartments or bust situation compared to Calgary.
I’m not necessarily criticizing Montreal for its past builds, but more that I like Calgary’s current housing diversity better than the diversity in Montreal.
Because we’re starting from the ground up replacing miles and miles of single-family homes we’ve got very good options, especially if somebody wants to buy a new build. In Calgary’s inner city you can pick SFH, row homes, duplexes or traditional apartment style.

I think Calgary is demonstrating an increasingly obvious ability to reform itself, creating that unit diversity that was largely missing (until about 30 years ago). Other cities in different sizes, situations and with different existing supply dynamics didn't necessarily have to respond to the same trends and economic conditions Calgary did that triggered the infill boom here. As cities increase in size and land values go up, the housing mix in different areas will change over time (if we let them).

I would respectfully disagree. I don’t really like the typology. At least in the case of the Montreal apartments, the three story, four story apartments in Montreal are still really just apartments. They’re not the row home style builds that we see here in Calgary with multi levels and a yard.

I see what you are saying, but when you have a half- million low-rise units built over 200 years, you really can have your cake and eat it too. Montreal's unit diversity includes many examples of everything you are looking for all over the place.

 

[trtcttc]

I think Calgary is demonstrating an increasingly obvious ability to reform itself, creating that unit diversity that was largely missing (until about 30 years ago). Other cities in different sizes, situations and with different existing supply dynamics didn't necessarily have to respond to the same trends and economic conditions Calgary did that triggered the infill boom here. As cities increase in size and land values go up, the housing mix in different areas will change over time (if we let them).

Calgary has also allowed these housing forms to change and making changes to zoning at a time when housing prices are still very low compared to other jurisdictions. When Vancouver and Toronto hit these housing cost levels, there was no talk of zoning changes or anything to spur construction. Only when the problem got too bad and became hard to reverse are they making some of the overdue changes.

 

[Always_Biking]

I see what you are saying, but when you have a half- million low-rise units built over 200 years, you really can have your cake and eat it too. Montreal's unit diversity includes many examples of everything you are looking for all over the place.

You can find different types of housing styles in Montreal but it’s not the same distribution you find in Calgary. If you want an 1600 sq ft, two-story townhouse with a small yard for a garden and not having anybody above you in inner city Montreal there aren’t very many. Those that are available are very expensive in relation to Montreal’s local economy. And to the point about diversity , there’s very little selection. And of course, if you want it to be a new build, it’s out of the question.
Again, I’m not trying to blame Montreal for past builds, but I am very happy with Calgary housing diversity.

 

[Beltline_B]

IMHO, the definition of a row house vs an apartment would be. A row house would have 1) direct access from the outside 2) nobody above you or below you in the same footprint.
I could see possible debate over point number 2, but that’s my definition of a row home versus an apartment.
As far as Montreal or Calgary‘s housing diversity goes, both cities could benefit from having more of the other city’s housing styles.

Personally I prefer Calgary’s housing options, but I would love to have a a lot more streets that had those low rise Montreal apartments.