News   Apr 03, 2020
Pastel Morning
 4.8K     1 
News   Apr 02, 2020
A Message to Our Readers
 6.6K     3 
News   Apr 02, 2020
Soon to be Gone
 3.8K     0 

17th Ave Car Free Discussion

Surrealplaces

Surrealplaces

Administrator
Staff member
Member Bio
Joined
Sep 24, 2015
Messages
12,732
Reaction score
73,461
Location
Calgary
Surrealplaces said:
calgaryherald.com

'Not a one-size-fits-all': Car-free portion of 17th Avenue a no-go for many businesses

Based on the results of a 17th Ave. BIA survey, it is unlikely Calgarians will see a "car-free zone" on 17th Avenue this summer.
calgaryherald.com calgaryherald.com

'Based on the results of a survey' though only 23 businesses out of 400 responded to the survey, with 17 no, and 7 yes votes.
Click to expand...
17th Avenue is emblematic of many of the frustrating elements of urban life in Calgary, and most cities forever in a state of change and trade-offs for public space.

We remain stuck in the anti-congestion-for-cars hegemonic perspective from local leaders and transportation officials. Keep in mind the terrible state of the sidewalks or the Saturday congestion on the north sidewalk doesn't create the same cause for alarm, hence why that project has dragged on for a decade for about 6 blocks of sidewalk repair of tripping hazards on the busiest pedestrian street in the city. Always remember, congestion is bad - but only for people driving - so no space should ever be given to pedestrians, even in an area where they outnumber cars. So status quo it is.

That said - one thing that is missing in all these debates is the huge range of different designs and permutations in practice for something like a car-free 17th Avenue. Closing the street permanently from 14th to MacLeod is hardly the same as closing it a couple Saturday nights on summer weekends between 8th Street and 4th Street.

My preference would be something in the middle:
  • Widen the north sidewalk permanently by 1 lane width from 4th to 8th Street SW, converting the street from 4 to 3 lanes here, 1 should be for parking.
  • Close down the same stretch summer weekend nights after 7pm, and also the occasional festival day as needed
  • Allow temporary summer-season patio extensions anywhere on any street in the city, including the rest of the 17th Avenue.
Mountain Man said:
I say leave 17th as is, no need to ban cars. Love the extended patios in the summer though, that should definitely continue. Stephen Ave is our pedestrian mall and people still drive on it, so lets fix that street first.
Click to expand...
For Stephen Ave, I think this is thinking way too small - we've had the same amount of pedestrianized blocks in Calgary since the 1980s despite a tripling of population in the city centre and broader city. We don't need many or even most streets to be car-free, but if all we do is fix 8 blocks of Stephen Avenue every 40 years we aren't really doing anything. I think pedestrian and public spaces in Calgary should grow as we get bigger, not just endless maintain the tiny amount of them we have.

We are expanding our highway network faster than population growth rate, why are our sidewalks and car-free spaces not being allowed to grow at a similar rate?
 
I’d be down for a summer traffic closure of 17th between 4th and 8th. Think it would be pretty cool, honestly. That section is far and away the busiest/most walkable anyways. Even just summer weekends (beginning of May to end of September) would be great, but I don’t think it should be just evenings.


Another interesting opportunity for pedestrian-only during summer weekends is First Street SW between 12th and 14th. The only impacted cross street would be 13th (very low traffic volume to begin with), and traffic on First Street south of 12th is pretty minimal. Additionally, the updates to First Street are far superior to the ones done to 17th, and makes it much nicer of an experience. However, pedestrian activity is relatively low at this point.
 
Last edited:
I guess I just don't see the need, 17th has the widest sidewalks in the city that I can think of, they get busy but it's not an absolute crush of people. They are also going to be redone this summer so any concerns about them being uneven should be taken care of. The one improvement 17th needs is relocated utility boxes. They can do a pilot project to see how it goes, maybe I'll be proven wrong.

1st is too limited for a closure to be worth it either. All the bars do the temporary patio thing which bumps the sidewalk into the parking lane, and that's a massive success. I don't think there is demand to close the street to cars.
 
Mountain Man said:
I guess I just don't see the need, 17th has the widest sidewalks in the city that I can think of, they get busy but it's not an absolute crush of people. They are also going to be redone this summer so any concerns about them being uneven should be taken care of. The one improvement 17th needs is relocated utility boxes. They can do a pilot project to see how it goes, maybe I'll be proven wrong.

1st is too limited for a closure to be worth it either. All the bars do the temporary patio thing which bumps the sidewalk into the parking lane, and that's a massive success. I don't think there is demand to close the street to cars.
Click to expand...
Needs are tricky because it's all about who defines what's needed - the status quo approach is needs are defined by a few business association members with media access and a poorly responded to survey, as well as some transportation engineers. Needs are defined as street parking and vehicle flow.

Sidewalk maintenance isn't really a "need" - therefore there's no issues if it takes a decade to complete simple sidewalk paving exercise. Similarly, it's not a "need" to be able to accommodate a few wheelchairs or strollers travelling side-by-side on the busiest sidewalk of the city, or the sidewalks would have been wider and all those utility box issues would have been moved long ago when we ripped up the street.

We could just define our needs differently and end up with a different prioritization of space. I would argue in this specific context (17th Avenue, between 4th and 8th) there's a good case to do so over just any random road in any location given the high pedestrian volumes and substantial patio density. Again, it doesn't have to be a permanent car-free experience (although that would be cool), it can be any number of things.

Here's Elgin Street in central Ottawa, has main bus routes, traffic, and lots of retail/patios just like 17th Ave:
1712779018188.png


Here's it more recently - lots of cars, patios, buses still but a better space that does close occasionally for festivals and special events :
1712779075732.png
 
CBBarnett said:
Needs are tricky because it's all about who defines what's needed - the status quo approach is needs are defined by a few business association members with media access and a poorly responded to survey, as well as some transportation engineers. Needs are defined as street parking and vehicle flow.

Sidewalk maintenance isn't really a "need" - therefore there's no issues if it takes a decade to complete simple sidewalk paving exercise. Similarly, it's not a "need" to be able to accommodate a few wheelchairs or strollers travelling side-by-side on the busiest sidewalk of the city, or the sidewalks would have been wider and all those utility box issues would have been moved long ago when we ripped up the street.

We could just define our needs differently and end up with a different prioritization of space. I would argue in this specific context (17th Avenue, between 4th and 8th) there's a good case to do so over just any random road in any location given the high pedestrian volumes and substantial patio density. Again, it doesn't have to be a permanent car-free experience (although that would be cool), it can be any number of things.

Here's Elgin Street in central Ottawa, has main bus routes, traffic, and lots of retail/patios just like 17th Ave:
View attachment 555312

Here's it more recently - lots of cars, patios, buses still but a better space that does close occasionally for festivals and special events :
View attachment 555313
Click to expand...
What an absolutely massive improvement to the public realm!
 
1000008331.jpg

Stephen Ave today. It's great that they're getting ready to have patio season, but how can they let cars drive on it? It's the busiest pedestrian street in the city, and the open sidewalk (with the patio fences, the sandwich boards and with cars in the street) is less than 2 feet wide. Once these patios go out, the street needs to be closed to cars entirely (excluding deliveries before 11 am). It's not even wheelchair accessible.
 
adamyyc said:
What an absolutely massive improvement to the public realm!
Click to expand...
It's simple, by Elgin Street in Ottawa got all the details right:
  • Wide crosswalk ramps that actually line up with the crosswalk in direction and width (practically an unheard of innovation in Calgary)
  • Narrow poles and street furniture out of the way of pedestrian movements
  • Tight corner radii to encourage slow turning movements - why would a busy, patio street ever require something different?
  • Wider sidewalks over street parking - more economically productive space for businesses and shoppers instead of vehicles.
  • Low curbs and raised intersections - easy to convert to car-free for events and allow for casual crossing by pedestrians at all times.
While still managing all these constraints:
  • ~9,000 - 12,000 cars a day (12,000 - 14,000 cars a day on 17th Avenue between 8th and 4th Streets )
  • ~minimum of 6 busses an hour / each direction (3 / hour / direction on on 17th Avenue between 8th and 4th Streets)
  • 18m right-of-way building front to building front for most blocks on entire corridor (17th Ave is way more variable, but smallest I can find is ~22m building-to-building)
It's all about the prioritizing "needs". For 3 years, 17th Ave has had random, temporary patios for most of the summer on the core stretch and the world didn't end. Just lean into that and make it a permanent far more pleasant and economically productive street all year round. You can (but don't need to) go car-free permanently to do that.
 
Trolley 5 Brewpub owner Ernie Tsu said a car-free zone would definitely benefit restaurants, but there needs to be equal footing for retail as well. He mentioned parking as being “massive” for every business, whether it be hospitality or retail. “There is a lot of parking down here, but not enough to take away all of the street parking. That would be a detriment, I think, to businesses,” said Tsu.
Click to expand...

17th Ave can't have any car-free times because of the need for parking, says the owner of a 350 seat bar, which presumably would go under if it didn't have access to all of this street parking:

1712881218358.png

Now that's a real crew cab! 2 bucket seats in the front, and 348 in the back, I assume.
 
ByeByeBaby said:
17th Ave can't have any car-free times because of the need for parking, says the owner of a 350 seat bar, which presumably would go under if it didn't have access to all of this street parking:

View attachment 555581
Now that's a real crew cab! 2 bucket seats in the front, and 348 in the back, I assume.
Click to expand...
I know there's studies that talk about how retailers tend to under-estimate the amount of people who go to their business by walking and bicycling. Would be really interesting if there was a Calgary study about 17th Ave specifically.

For places like Trolley 5 and the Ship and Anchor, I have a hard time believing more than about 10% of their total weekly patrons arrive by personal vehicle.
 
CBBarnett said:
I know there's studies that talk about how retailers tend to under-estimate the amount of people who go to their business by walking and bicycling. Would be really interesting if there was a Calgary study about 17th Ave specifically.

For places like Trolley 5 and the Ship and Anchor, I have a hard time believing more than about 10% of their total weekly patrons arrive by personal vehicle.
Click to expand...
Parking beside a sidewalk is just a really inefficient and damaging use of space on a street that has pedestrian priority like 17th Ave. Drivers have plenty of parking options nearby in lots, streets or parkades. Walking a block or 2 to the destination is not a barrier for most people. Removing on-street parking will only help these businesses. A study needs to be done to prove that. It would also bring reluctant business owners on board.
 
Agreed. This isn't something that should be a big deal, but here we are. Maybe if we can convince the business association to start with weekends first, or to do a like a one month pilot or something, we can get it up and running and they'll see what a success it is.
I can still remember how much friction there was to building the DT cycle tracks, and how people said they'd never be used, or how much it would kill businesses along 12th ave.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top